How could a world exist without predation, hazard, and death?
— Wayfarer

It apparently did, prior to the fall. — Thorongil

The point of your argument is not that predation, hazard and death occur, but that they're evil:

The world has always ever been fallen, that is to say, has always contained horrendous suffering, evil, and death. — Thorongil

What about it was 'evil', prior to Adam 'eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil'?

That is the point of the parable, in my view. Evil is inextricably bound up with human judgement, which begins with the advent of self-consciousness (hence, the fig leaf.)

What about it was 'evil', prior to Adam 'eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil'? — Wayfarer

Natural evil. I'm not actually too fond of this term, as I prefer to relegate evil to the sphere of intentional human activity, but it's one that philosophers and theologians use, so that's what I mean by evil prior to the fall.

What more do you want me to say? — Thorongil

Nothing at all. I am not the participant in this exchange who said "Go on" and "Either address it or stop replying."

No, it's not because if you cannot understand an infinite intentionality then you cannot attribute anything to it.

Yes, which was directed at your initial criticism, a criticism since shown to be based on a misunderstanding of what I intended to say. I guess we're done, then. What a pointless conversation.

If you aspire to be a believer then you have to accept that your finite intellect will never be able to understand the ways of an infinte intentionailty. IF you deny infinite intentionality then you are left with Spinoza's God.
If you are not satisfied with Spinoza's God then just be an atheist. What's the problem? — Janus

How can one with a finite intellect ever hope to possess free will? If what we know is limited, then our choices will be limited. The existence of God, an omniscient being, defies the existence of free will. Why would such a being limit our intellect and then expect us to make intelligent decisions?

What does "infinite intentionality" even mean?

good thread BTW.

I've read most of the bible - Atheist myself - some works i value, others not so much. I view all works as separate and within the lens of both the author's theme/agenda and the Time it was written.

that means i ignore conventional Christian dogma - including 2000 yr old and counting dogma - and educate myself on both the time the work in question was written (Genesis - 900 yrs BC (from 400 yr older oral tales) and the agenda of the author (in Genesis' author - their (more than one - no Moses did not write the Torah (yes Judaic Dogma mandates this nonsense)) agenda was to fix the "god mandate" of Israel as a place for the Jews................there is no theological dogma outside of this one thing in that work..........all dogma outside of this one particular has been invented by subequent authors of both the old testement and new testament.

fact is:

1. Genesis story is taken from an older oral tale, which was in fact formed from an older written one from both the Akkadians and Summarians (Akkadians took thier tale from the Summarians - Eluma Elish anyone?).

2, there was no "fall".........that Judiac/Christian theology is incorrect - it was placed upon the Genesis myth, but has no logical basis.

3.i proper reading of Genesis was as a Polytheistic Summarian (place yourself in that time as a polytheistic believer)...............so no "Fall" - fact is Adam/Eve Rose to "godhood".............prior to eating of the Tree of Knowledge, Adam/Eve was just another dumb animal, after they became "as gods knowing good from evil" (its all there for anyone to read it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - if you can remove your Christian dogmatic eyes and read the tale as a Summarian!).

4. YHWH (God) became afraid (yes he became afraid that adam/eve would become his equal) - and so removed the other Tree - the one if immortality,

5. so man become stuck in "limbo" - no longer an animal, with the mind of the Gods (yes Genesis is a Polytheistic work - i refer to the "us" and "we" throughout the account - this is the Cananite (and originally Summarian then Akkadian) Heavenly court, but the body of the "beasts of the field" since the God/s removed that other tree.

6. Satan (Balial)......i.e. "The Devil" did not exist until the Jews adopted him (Ahraman) during their 2nd exile in 587 BC. The book of Genesis predates "The Devil" by 300 yrs.

7. "the snake" spoke the truth,

8. "the snake" was not "The Devil", he/it was just another god from the Heavenly Court.

9. none of my interpretation will be affirmed by Christians and is blasphamy,

10. I don't care about #9 above since their dogma is inaccurate, while - even if I do say so myself - mine is far more accurate and honest.

11. understanding history and origin of myths is important, was well as ignoring any dogma one may have as an obstical toward objectivity, when understanding a written work.

12. i had it easy in that i was never a Christian, so never had a dogma to overcome. others may not be like me and so may have to overcome.

13, peace to all - i'm a new poster here - this is my third post - after 9 yrs over in "bible-discussions" forum.............agreeing and agreeing to dissagree with many honest folks there - that forum closed for good last week (breaks my heart - love to discuss - sad that me and other from that place have lost a "home" there.

2-cents.

Thanks. I always enjoy learning about the origins of ancient myths. In many ways they saw more clearly as the territory was not as littered. I knew a bit about the pre-Genesis story, but enjoyed learning more.

Thanks for the link. I'll be researching it some.

As for editing posts, the button is invisible (don't ask me why, it is part of technology fads), and appears when you hover over there region next to the posting time at the bottom of the post.

If you highlight text, a quote button will appear somewhere above the text in the post. All like this is highly counterintuitive, but some programmer designers like to be cute even if makes life difficult for users I guess.

Hope you enjoy the forum.