Using these definitions of object and space, objects and space would be the medium of change.An object being something with finite extent in at least one of its properties (a particular entity); space being that which separates distinct objects. — Daniel
Call me daft if you want Arne, but you'll have to explain this to me. In my usage 2 stands for two distinct things with spatial separation between them, and 3 stands for three spatially separated things, etc.. Therefore, contrary to what you say, numerals seem especially useful when they refer to things with spatial existence. And I really don't see how they would be at all useful (except for the purpose of deception) to refer to things without spatial existence, i.e. fictitious things. — Metaphysician Undercover
What if they (the mortgages) are created at the same time (and taken out by the same person)? — Daniel
That does not seem very correct, or at least it seems only a way to imagine something. such as numbers. 2 and 2 is 4 independent of there being 2 things and 2 other things. — Tobias
These are all examples of information. Information occupies space. If you don't believe me, look at the contents of your hard drive on your computer. Does not the signed copy of your mortgage agreement occupy kilobytes of space on your drive? This forum occupies space in the cloud. Type 300 in a text document and you can see that the text occupies space and the document occupies space in RAM until saved to your hard drive's space. For something to exist and for you to be aware of and talk about it, it must occupy space.What space is occupied by your Mortgage?
What space is occupied by Philosophy forums?
What space is occupied by three hundred? — Banno
If you don't believe me, look at the contents of your hard drive on your computer. Does not the signed copy of your mortgage agreement occupy kilobytes of space on your drive? — Harry Hindu
Using these definitions of object and space, objects and space would be the medium of change. — Harry Hindu
Like I said, it was a COPY of your mortgage agreement. You'd have to hack into the bank's computer and delete it there too for your mortgage ro be gone.Cool. I'll delete the contents of the hard drive and then my mortgage is gone. — Banno
Word and Adobe add extra information that is not part of the mortgage information and that is what makes the difference. If there us no record that Banno has a mortgage then he is not obligated to pay something that doesn't exist. If you ask the bank for evidence that you have a mortgage, what do you think they will show you? If they can't show you any information of your mortgage then you effectively don't have a mortgage. If you are talking about his memory of his mortgage, then we are still talking about information that occupies the space in his head.If that be true than whether the morgage is stipulated in Word or in PDF would make a difference to the motrgage, since it will occupy a diffferent amount kilobytes of space on my hard drive. However, it does not. Likewise if Banno's morgtgage would somehow be eradicated from his harddrive and from the hardrive of the company he has a mortgage from, that would somehow destroy Banno's obligation to pay. That however is false. — Tobias
Information occupies space — Harry Hindu
You'd have to hack into the bank's computer and delete it there too for your mortgage ro be gone. — Harry Hindu
I've also been told by many folk that God exists and wants me to be saved by him. Does that make it true? You're not appealing to popularity are you?No, Harry. The mortgage is an agreement. But this sort of thing has been explained to you before, by many folk. — Banno
What is it that keeps the agreement intact? If at any moment I can make an agreement, at any moment I can cancel the agreement. It takes more than one to make an agreement but only one to break the agreement. If I decide not to abide by the agreement then I don't need to pay my mortgage?Even if the records of the mortgage disappeared, the obligations remain - they just cannot be proved.
Same as keeping a verbal promise. — Banno
What else are numbers if not scribbles on a page, which occupies space?Ain't it the matter on which zeroes and ones are formed that occupies space? — Raymond
The mortgage is an agreement. — Banno
Yet it only takes one individual to break the agreement, or relationship.An agreement is in no way an object or an entity, so it's not even worth your while arguing that an agreement is a non-spatial "object" or "entity". And since it is a relation between a plurality of individuals, it is in no way an "individual". — Metaphysician Undercover
Is not space a relationship between individuals? — Harry Hindu
The definition in the OP is wrong. Scientists have described space as a thing that can expand or contract. Put a wall between you and I and an object, not space, separates us.Separates" and "unites" are somewhat opposed. — Metaphysician Undercover
These are both types of relationships. A couple can be married (unites) and then divorced (separates) and both are types of relationships between them. You could be sitting right next to me or across the country and that is a relationship between you and I. — Harry Hindu
In measuring the space between individuals are you not establishing a relationship between them? That's what a measurement is - a relationship. — Harry Hindu
Why not just agree that divorce and marriage are relationships so that you don't contradict yourself in saying that a divorce is a type of unity. What you mean is that it is a type of relationship.The divorce does not separate them, it still describes a unity, but it also puts a temporal constraint on that unity by saying that it has ended. — Metaphysician Undercover
Every time you say "unity" you mean relationship. Every time you say "distance" you mean space. We are both saying essentially the same thing, but using different words. With our different words, we are pointing to the same thing. Thanks for agreeing. :smile:People do not 'measure the space' between things, they measure the distance between them. So yes, by measuring the distance between them you are establishing a relationship, and this is inherently a unity between them. You are making them both one predicate of the same subject (which is the unity of the two) by saying that the two exist with such a distance between them. Measuring the distance between them is not to posit a space between them which is being measured, it is to posit a principle of unity between them, the act of measurement unites them. — Metaphysician Undercover
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.