So to you individuals have no say within a society? — javra
To me, societies don't decide or feel; individuals do. And when the decisions and feelings of individuals interrelate, that's when a society forms. — javra
I think there is here, an unnecessary tripping-up over terminology. Potayto-potahto. — James Riley
Law can "force" morality up to a certain extent. To the extent that it harms others. And even that cannot be always applied. For example, hurting ones feelings, in various ways, cannot be forbidden by law,What holds together a society is the enforcement of morality through the use of force (the law) — L'éléphant
OK, now you passed to crime. This has very little to do --if anything at all-- with morality. It is a pure legal subject.Some examples of crimes against society — L'éléphant
Please read this:In what country? — tim wood
-- Guttmacher Institute, An Overview of Abortion LawsGestational Limits: 43 states prohibit abortions after a specified point in pregnancy, with some exceptions provided. The allowable circumstances are generally when an abortion is necessary to protect the patient's life or health.
No. This is not what I'm saying at all. You cited Nazi as an example. I said it's not a society.If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Germany lacked society during WWII times? What did they instead have during this time period? — javra
"Outrage" is the term. "Outcry" is another. When the majority of the population have expressed an outrage or outcry, they represent the whole of their society. And the society acts to remedy this public outcry by means of creating a law.Or perhaps that people often use their emotions or their personal sense of "what feels right" or even just feels good, more so than what (they know?) logically is best, ie. smoking cigarettes or drinking regularly? — Outlander
No I'm not. Unless you mean humans are automatons glued together by laws. Apply culture to these automatons and you get society.You are conflating society with culture. Culture is language, tradition, religion, shared experience, etc. Society is glued together by laws. — James Riley
The majority of the members of society has the power. So long as they don't use logic, but public outcry and outrage. This so-called power has nothing to do with the 1% or the 99%. It's about what morality is being undermined.The question is, who has power? Is it 1% of the population, and they oppress the other 99%? Is it 50%? 80%? — Philosophim
And yet the reasoning behind the penal code is the viability of the fetus. If there's a heartbeat, the doctor can decide not to perform an abortion -- yeah this! even if the life of the mother is clearly at stake. The doctor who refuses to perform an abortion is not prosecuted. The law protects the doctor's psychic pain and liberty to decide not to participate in that decision. Oh wait! Are you really just thinking about the person getting an abortion and no one else? That's immoral.1. Abortion - Abortion is a bad thing. We should do what we can reasonably to reduce the numbers, but not by enacting legal restrictions. It is not a crime and it is not the problem. It should be legal. — T Clark
Then why can a bigamist be prosecuted even if the other party is a consenting adult? What's the rational behind the law? You married a married person, that bigamist could be charged with a crime even if you didn't file a complaint.3. Bigamy and polygamy - I can see the value in having rules in this regard, but I don't see this as a crime against society. — T Clark
Annoying? Disturbance of the peace can include a rocket-propelled grenade fired towards a peaceful celebration of people having a good time.Disturbance of the peace - Well, ok, it's annoying and worthy of restrictions, but is it really a crime against society? — T Clark
Sorry. Yes.Violation of helmet and seat belt laws - Sorry. No. — T Clark
Nice try. Good on paper. Are you saying that laws should only be an option, not the rule? On what undiscovered planet it exists? Please invite us.You seem to have forgotten that society has methods of social control other than legal restrictions. The law should be the enforcement method of last resort. — T Clark
Okay, I'm going to break my rule in the OP by mentioning a venn diagram. (Yes, I know I promised no use of other means) But here's the thing -- the majority of the member of society dictate the morality of that society. There are the minority, which include the dissenters, those who engage in crimes against society. And yes they are part of the society. And what did we just accomplish by stating the obvious that they are part of society? We've accomplished saying more words that don't add to this discussion.Those who engage in your "crimes against society" are also a part of society. So, in truth, what is being proposed here is a far more ruinous crime, namely, a form of slavery: some members of society get to rule over the other members of society. — NOS4A2
The question is, who has power? Is it 1% of the population, and they oppress the other 99%? Is it 50%? 80%?
— Philosophim
The majority of the members of society has the power. So long as they don't use logic, but public outcry and outrage. This so-called power has nothing to do with the 1% or the 99%. It's about what morality is being undermined. — L'éléphant
I didn't know that exists. Thanks.(There’s a very good article in the Internet on the subject: "Legal Enforcement of Morality" (
https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199756162.001.0001/acprof-9780199756162-chapter-9). It is quite short and it is worth reading.) — Alkis Piskas
When morality is a voluntary act, you foster irresponsible members of society. When this happens you get a monster dictator. Evil thrives in chaos, monsters in diplomacy.To my opinion, morality cannot be forced. It can only be encouraged, its value and purpose explained, etc. Morality exists only if it comes naturally from or is determined by oneself. If one behaves morally but he is forced to in any way, we say that he does so because he is a moral person. — Alkis Piskas
See my post above, to @Alkis Piskas.Nothing needs to "hold society together". Society just exists, or doesn't exist, depending on one's ideological outlook. — baker
Tell that to L'éléphant ... — 180 Proof
Incorrect. The gays got what they wanted because the public outrage of the majority diminished. Careful now.Gays for example, were able to get others to relinquish their power over them, and not be outlawed or denied state marriages. — Philosophim
Please read this:
Gestational Limits: 43 states prohibit abortions after a specified point in pregnancy, with some exceptions provided. The allowable circumstances are generally when an abortion is necessary to protect the patient's life or health.
-- Guttmacher Institute, An Overview of Abortion Laws — L'éléphant
Some examples of crimes against society:
1. Abortion — L'éléphant
Arguably.That sounds rather like a prescription for reactionary authoritarianism. — Wayfarer
Also known as "society". — baker
I do mean it.When you say that abortion is a crime against society, you clearly do not mean that abortion is a crime against society. What you mean is that abortion is legal, but restricted. I.e., some abortions at some times in some places under some conditions are violations of laws in force at those places. That is exactly not any sort of crime against society. Why did you say it was when apparently you know perfectly well it is not? Lying? Bluffing? Gas-lighting? Or just you do not know what you're talking about? — tim wood
You go first. Read my own remarks, if you haven't.Then you're making nonsense. Read your own remarks! — tim wood
You are conflating society with culture. Culture is language, tradition, religion, shared experience, etc. Society is glued together by laws.
— James Riley
No I'm not. Unless you mean humans are automatons glued together by laws. Apply culture to these automatons and you get society. — L'éléphant
You go first. Read my own remarks, if you haven't. — L'éléphant
I don't gain anything by pretending to be right. That's bullshit.I know how hard it is for you to be wrong, but you should be used to it by now. — James Riley
News to me.Culture is independent of society. — James Riley
Mmm. Name calling. No need to lose your cool. You could file a complaint to the moderators.I did, troll. I referenced them just above. — tim wood
Gays for example, were able to get others to relinquish their power over them, and not be outlawed or denied state marriages.
— Philosophim
Incorrect. The gays got what they wanted because the public outrage of the majority diminished. Careful now. — L'éléphant
What holds together a society is the enforcement of morality through the use of force (the law). — L'éléphant
I don't gain anything by pretending to be right. That's bullshit. — L'éléphant
News to me. — L'éléphant
Relinquish power over gays? Listen to yourself. Do not talk to me about ego trip while talking nonsense like this, please. Gays were not out to get power from others. They wanted to be treated as equals.Amazingly, America decided to relinquish power over gays, and let them be free to be who they are. — Philosophim
Okay, I'll level with you then. What is that reference that undercuts what claim?What name do you give to someone who makes a categorical claim, himself provides references that entirely undercut that claim, refuses to account, and insists on his nonsensical claim? — tim wood
Okay, I'll level with you then. What is that reference that undercuts what claim? — L'éléphant
Please read this:
Gestational Limits: 43 states prohibit abortions after a specified point in pregnancy, with some exceptions provided. The allowable circumstances are generally when an abortion is necessary to protect the patient's life or health.
-- Guttmacher Institute, An Overview of Abortion Laws
— L'éléphant
Some examples of crimes against society:
1. Abortion
— L'éléphant — tim wood
The fact that the state had to put a condition for a legal abortion means it is still restrictive. — L'éléphant
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