Riot, insurrection. Words aside, what exactly do you say happened on 6 January?

At worst, a riot. — NOS4A2

And at best?

“Mostly peaceful protest”.

"Mostly peaceful protest”. — NOS4A2

Bad faith reply.

The retired Obama and Clinton-supporting generals weave media articles with their own fears in order to knit an anti-Trump narrative, which will surely become another self-fulfilling prophesy, like the Russia hoax and the insurrection hoax. — NOS4A2

Since we're on a board where we do a little more thinking than others, I want you to consider this. The person with insight never worries about the other party. Your party will shower you with reasons to dislike the other party, and will always fight them. The insightful person worries about their OWN party. No one on the other side is going to get a one up on you. But your own leaders will always attempt to get a one up on you to stay in power.

Anyone who defends their own party from clear evil needs to take a re-examination of their self. Not for others, but for their own sake. A party that can lie to you that easily for power, will see you as a convenient tool to be used. This is not anything I say from an armchair either, but something I practice as well. I'm more interested in the lies the party I support tells me, then the party I don't. I would assume your own party is lying to you in regards to January 6th, and look for information that supports that. Only after you do that, then you should make a judgement.

You'll never be fooled by the other party. Don't be the one fooled by your own.

The war won't happen.
Previous wars broke out because there were competing forms of production.
The only forms of production in the U.S. are dominated by corporate entities. The hold outs are various forms of finding opportunity despite that; Not a countervailing movement but more like a bunker. It is not a sustainable model.

I’m a registered independent. This party has yet to deceive me. If there is evidence of any insurrection I’ll be sure to doff my hat.

Are you suggesting you have no way to figure it out by yourself?

↪NOS4A2 Riot, insurrection. Words aside, what exactly do you say happened on 6 January? — tim wood

Dja miss this, nos4? Or are you just pissing yellow words in the snow?

Jan 6 was a minor kerfuffle but because liberals are literally incapable of systemic analysis and like to frame things Marvel Movie Events and the Goodies and the Baddies duke it out and the Goodies win it is somehow very very consequential. It's Hasbro politics: My First Politics Playtime Set™.

Doesn't help that some powerful people felt threatened and liberals cannot fathom the jaw-dropping idea that people in power can be threatened or made to feel so. A bunch of Plutocrat-enabling grifters felt uneasy for a bit - the horror. The whole thing was a carnival for alt-right cosplayers, in which some class traitors were killed or injured. The only tragedy is that some working people had to be killed so that those in power could continue exactly as they have been.

A bunch of Plutocrat-enabling grifters felt uneasy for a bit - the horror. — StreetlightX

They may be scumbags one and all — that’s not the issue. They were not targeted as scumbags but as elected representatives carrying out their constitutional duty. It’s not the attack on Pence that bothers us — not mainly, I mean, he’s a dangerous Christian dominionist, but also a human being who ought not be pummeled to death by a mob — it was the attack on the rule of law itself that was unsettling. That bothers us whether it’s done by a mob or by current and former government officials ignoring Congressional subpoenas and court orders, or by Reagan funding a secret foreign policy through arms sales. The rule of law itself is not up for negotiation, so we liberals believe.

Jan 6 was a minor kerfuffle but because liberals are literally incapable of systemic analysis — StreetlightX

This has nothing to do with liberals. Any systematic analysis should reveal that. People busted windows, beat up police officers, destroyed and took things like podium's out of the house, and all with the aim to stop the election from being certified. Thank goodness people in congress got out. Can you imagine what would have happened if they had been caught? Can you imagine if someone had brought bombs, or a foreign spy had tagged along and found this to be his opportunity?

Conservative, liberal, or independent, it should be condemned by everyone.

Oh I know. Liberals treat politics like bureaucrats: as long as rules are not broken, anything goes. Even fascism. Which is why liberals will side with fascists everytime against left pressure.

People busted windows, beat up police officers, destroyed and took things like podium's out of the house, and all with the aim to stop the election from being certified. — Philosophim

Oh no they damaged property and hurt some class traitors for a process which is largely meaningless how sad :( It's insane how glassy eyed people get for rituals and symbols of power, even if that power has presided over mass misery.

as long as rules are not broken, anything goes. Even fascism. — StreetlightX

Well, no, it’s just that there’s no point in striving for just laws in a lawless nation. Rule of law alone is certainly not enough, but it’s a requirement — so we believe. We also tend to support civil disobedience and jury nullification when we have failed to make the law just. But we are trying to build something better than the war of all against all. So are you, aren’t you? You think the state is no solution, and you may be right — I think you’re wrong, but I don’t consider you my enemy. The mob that attempted to stop the peaceful transfer of power are my enemy and yours as well, because they believe power should only and forever be in the hands of ‘the right sort of people’.

Oh no they damaged property and hurt some pigs for a process which is meaningless how sad :( — StreetlightX

Maybe you don't understand that those pigs were men with families doing their job to protect the people in the capitol.

Here's testimony from Michael Fannon, one of the police officers that was beaten during the riot.

"Fanon delivered emotional opening remarks criticizing those who downplayed the assault in the weeks since January 6.

“What makes the struggle more difficult and more painful is knowing so many of my fellow citizens, including so many people I risked my life to defend, downplaying or outright denying what happened,” he told the nine lawmakers. face. “I feel like I went to hell and came back to protect them and the people in this room, but many now tell me that hell doesn’t exist – or that hell wasn’t actually that bad.”

Footage from Fanon’s body camera was shown during the hearing, showing him and other officers trying to fend off the rioters as they attempted to storm the Capitol, and Fanon carried inside by fellow officers after he was injured.

In the footage, an officer holding a fanon shouts, “We need a paramedic. We need EMTs now!” While another implored him to “stay there, my friend.”

In May, Fanon wrote a letter describing the emotional toll of the January 6 attack, telling CBS News last month that he had been “tortured,” dragged into a crowd, shocked and beaten by a mob of former President Donald Trump’s supporters. He told the House Select Committee on Tuesday that he lost consciousness during the Capitol attack and suffered a mild heart attack and brain injury. "
-https://tittlepress.com/latest/1012027/

There was nothing innocent, or light about that. If these men had not held off the rioters until congress was able to evacuate, who knows what else might have happened. Its like saying a person who went into your house with a machete, stole some of your stuff and left isn't a big deal because you weren't home and he didn't have the opportunity to kill you.

e also tend to support civil disobedience and jury nullification when we have failed to make the law just. But we are trying to build something better than the war of all against all. — Srap Tasmaner

Nah, liberals have proven time and time again that these are nothing more than words. It's why they cannot but blather on about Jan 6 and say nothing - literally nothing - about capitalism. They want comfort, not justice. The only interesting thing about Jan 6 is it's aftermath - the fact that the pollies have used it to milk sympathy from a population it is been systematically immiserating for decades, who - as this thread amply demonstrates - are now more rather than less apt to brownnose than ever.

I couldn't care less. What happened to some pig somewhere is not a systemic problem. Even Gobbels had a family. American police are a public health hazard, and as they are so fond of reminding people, they put themselves in the front line. It's a job. If they don't like it they should get another. Instead, they got more funding.

I couldn't care less. What happened to some pig somewhere is not a systemic problem. — StreetlightX

I am incredibly disappointed and disheartened to hear this. I feel you have made people into "the other". This is what allows racism, sexism, and hate to foster in people's hearts. You should actively seek out an opportunity to talk with a police officer, or interact with some liberals in your community. They are not "some pigs". They are people in your community just trying to make a living like you do.

I feel you have made people into "the other". — Philosophim

People who systematically extra-judicially murder citizens on a regular basis are an "other".

Never seen so many people driven into collective hysteria on the basis of a glorified cosplay convention gone awry.

People who systematically extra-judicially murder citizens on a regular basis are an "other". — StreetlightX

You've been on these boards for a long time StreetlightX. A major goal of philosophy is to carefully examine our own presumptions and prejudices about the world, and see if they hold up in the light of rationality.

Can you say your words do? Were the defenders at the capitol riot who got beaten, feared for their life, and put into the hospital extra-judicially murdering citizens on a regular basis? Are they really an "other", or are they human beings like you and me?

Never seen so many people driven into collective hysteria on the basis of a glorified cosplay convention gone awry. — StreetlightX

One of the prides of America is that we have peaceful transitions of power. You vote your guy, they vote their guy, and whoever wins at the end of the day, wins. This was an attack on that pride. Don't you think some people have a right to be offended and outraged?

People who didn't like losing the vote, decided to act like spoiled punks. People got hurt. A few died. Was it a coordinated take over with law rockets, bombs, and tanks? No. But it was an attack on the idea that we can have a peaceful transfer of power. That we can work out our differences through discussion, reason, and voting.

As a person who enjoys philosophy, don't you find that offensive? Isn't that the antithesis to free thought, speech, and handling matters without violence? Are you being rational, or are you rationalizing your own emotions and biases?

As a person who enjoys philosophy, don't you find that offensive? — Philosophim

I don't find it offensive because I enjoy philosophy. One of the things a bit of analysis teaches you is not to get sucked in by spectacle and glitz. What is the point of a peaceful transition of power when the power in question is murderous? What is the point of voting when representatives represent literally no one but the rich? That's my issue with liberals: they care about 'ideas', and not one bit about reality. It is literal idealism. You can't eat pride. You can't pay your rent with pride. Maybe the 'defenders' of the capitol don't personally murder people extra-judicially on a regular basis. But they sure as hell looked at an institution that does and said, 'yep, I would like to be a part of that'.

And if one's politics is driven by how emotional one feeling at any point in time, maybe consider that all your opinions are totally invalid for all time until the heat death of the universe.

There will never be a civil war in America. People are way too addicted to their phones to go to battle.

I joined this forum mainly because I got tired of sitting around doing nothing while everyone around me was staring at their screens.

That's my issue with liberals: they care about 'ideas', and not one bit about reality. — StreetlightX

Both liberal and conservative Americans hold that a peaceful transfer of power is something we aspire towards. You are using "the liberals" as some boogeyman. Maybe you don't realize it, but its clouding your judgement and causing you to make logical fallacies left and right.

Who is getting murdered on election day? None of those rioters was concerned about needing to eat or pay their bills because of an election. America is not a regime that tortures its citizens, or where people disappear in the night for having opinions the government doesn't like. I think it way outside of anything reasonable to think that.

Streetlight, before you cast that others are being emotional, maybe examine yourself first. Its late on my end, so lets sleep on it. Have a good night.

Both liberal and conservative Americans hold that a peaceful transfer of power is something we aspire towards. — Philosophim

This doesn't address a thing I said. And why torture citizens when you can simply keep them on the edge of starvation, without healthcare, or simply bound to work for poverty wages? And sure, if it doesn't torture its citizens - debateable - it sure does torture non-citizens, while vigorously supporting other nations that do torture their citizens, while regularly destroying democracies overseas. And that's to say nothing of the all out persecution of journalists who expose its wanton war crimes. And again, who needs to shut down journalists when your media environment is simply owned by corporations who would never hire or platform subversive journalists in the first place? And who could forget unmarked vehicles dragging people away as they protested Trump? Or your cops who do, in fact, murder people for crimes like 'sleeping in their bed'.

But nah, definitely spill infinte energy into a rowdy carnival that threatened some rich power-hungry ghouls with loud noises from the hoi-polloi.

It's mad that people fantasize about a coming civil war, without recognizing the class war that is widespread and pervasive at every point in time, already playing out minute-to-minute. The privilege reeks.

If not "insurrection," what do you call the events of January 6th? — ZzzoneiroCosm

At worst, a riot. — NOS4A2

A sloppy self-defeating chaotic riot that the inept former President hoped somehow would get him turn obvious election result somehow to something else. An extremely Trumpian attempt (meaning a poor, clueless attempt) on a self coup. An organized attempt? Hardly organized...

(Which btw would have could have worked if Trump had a ruthless drive and leadership qualities. There was the "strategic surprise" to do something so outrageous. Even the crowds to celebrate such attack on democracy.)

This was picked up even in our local newspapers here:

Barbara F. Walter, a political science professor at the University of California at San Diego, serves on a CIA advisory panel called the Political Instability Task Force that monitors countries around the world and predicts which of them are most at risk of deteriorating into violence. By law, the task force can’t assess what’s happening within the United States, but Walter, a longtime friend who has spent her career studying conflicts in Syria, Lebanon, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Rwanda, Angola, Nicaragua and elsewhere, applied the predictive techniques herself to this country.

Her bottom line: “We are closer to civil war than any of us would like to believe.” She lays out the argument in detail in her must-read book, “How Civil Wars Start,” out in January. “No one wants to believe that their beloved democracy is in decline, or headed toward war,” she writes. But, “if you were an analyst in a foreign country looking at events in America — the same way you’d look at events in Ukraine or the Ivory Coast or Venezuela — you would go down a checklist, assessing each of the conditions that make civil war likely. And what you would find is that the United States, a democracy founded more than two centuries ago, has entered very dangerous territory.”

The interesting thing is how we report these issues. When it's a poor Third World country, we openly talk of civil war or insurgencies. When it's the First World, we don't. An example: in hindsight the British Army has openly acknowledged that it faced and fought an insurgency in Northern Ireland. Yet the very smart British understood how important it was never to utter those words... or have the media to refer it as an insurgency. It was only "The Troubles". And if someone dared to say that the UK was fighting an insurgency in the British Isles in the late 20th Century, many would immediately come to correct the phrasing about the issue.

And likely so it will be if everything goes to hell in a handbasket in the US...

A myth is usually an uncertain and unverifiable story about what happened. Unlike what happens with facts, myths allow a varied hermeneutic. The archaic Greek myths and the hermeneutics made of them by Sophocles and Euripides are different things. For this reason, unlike what happens with the facts, in the myth the development of a society is appreciated. They reflect us.
Anyone who reads the Daredevil comics will see the evolution of the female characters, very much in keeping with the changing times.
Stan Lee humanized superheroes. Ironman has to face the problem of alcohol. Spiderman has to face a bullying situation. Dr. Banner is a withdrawn and introverted person who carries the inferiority complex of most intelligent people (particularly scientists who work for the government). However, Stan Lee featured superheroes against villains. White against black. The Marvel Factory has lately reinterpreted the problem of power in a way that is reminiscent of Aristotle. They say that with all power comes great responsibility. For Aristotle, the difference between a just government and a corrupt one depends on the common good. Righteous rulers seek the common good, while corrupt rulers only think of using power for their own benefit. Most governments are corrupt, so ... I think Aristotle always considered power to be a negative and corrupting power. Power perverts those who possess it and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Good government is a rarity, as are those who use power wisely. Take a look at the NBA basketball players who end up begging after collecting millions of dollars during their sports careers. The Marvel mythology has been getting the message across in its own way. Everyone in power is going to undergo a transformation. Only a few manage to resist an intrinsic dynamic and that is why they are heroes. This reveals a conception of the human being as negative as the one described in Genesis. We are born with deficiencies and if we prosper, we acquire other deficiencies. Aristotle seems to have tried to solve the matter by means of the theory of the middle term. I think the message from the Marvel factory is much more pessimistic. You can only hope that heroes don't use their prosperity for evil, that's why they are heroes. This reveals a paradox, as the people they save are not good either, but potentially bad. Give the monkey a stick and it will kill another. On the other hand, a good person can stop being so, while it is difficult for a corrupt person to improve. Just take a look at the comics from a decade ago that sparked a Civil War between superheroes. I think Marvel mythology has never been so negative... and mythology only reflect us.

Right, “an attack on democracy”. A no more fatuous string of words can be uttered.

The only insurrection and coup attempts were the activities of the deep state and anti-Trump forces in both parties and in the media, who spent the majority of their time trying to stifle, discredit, and remove Trump from office during his presidency, the will of the people be damned. Right now they are actively attempting to prohibit him from running again. So much for democracy.

The only insurrection and coup attempts were the activities of the deep state and anti-Trump forces in both parties and in the media, who spent the majority of their time trying to stifle, discredit, and remove Trump from office during his presidency, the will of the people be damned. Right now they are actively attempting to prohibit him from running again. So much for democracy. — NOS4A2

So many lies. So many lies. Nos4 , you are a liar. Also, I asked you twice to tell us what exactly in simple language you think happened on 6 Jan. And no response from you.

But we have recent news of Republican Wisconsin State legislators forging documents and trying to represent themselves as the official Wisconsin electors. It's interesting that all the bad things that happen are done by Republicans, who then deny their own actions and at the same time blame everyone else.

in both parties and in the media, who spent the majority of their time trying to stifle, discredit, and remove Trump from office — NOS4A2

Oh, just LIKE WITH THE BILL CLINTON ADMINISTRATION! :grin: