Voluntary poverty / asceticism is the greatest way to live life

Eskander

Asceticism is clearly not suitable for the vast majority of mankind, it requires great courage and restraint. However, you must realize/actualize the potential you have for the accumulation of material objects of pleasure. True renunciation is only possible when you can have everything. This is a general outline of how it should be done, so you are not hiding your weakness under the guise of asceticism.

Why should we renounce the world ?

I am sure many of you here are familiar with the arguments offered by Schopenhauer. Our will to live is the greatest source of discomfort, and we must deny it. But I don't share his viewpoint.

Every worldy pleasure ( sensual, intellectual ) makes us forget God who is the only source of peace and contentment. The remembrance of God is the only source of comfort. This world is a temporal abode and a place of suffering for the most part of your life. Mankind is a constant state of struggle. Our distant thinking is a great source of pain, we are if not fully, always partially worried about our future. Needless to say, I don't see how anyone can disagree with this statement. To achieve contentment, we must seek the help of a transcendent being.

But it's a pity, atheism and godlessness is the cultural backdrop of the western world. To see philosophers celebrating nihilism is revolting spiritually. Every person with a sound heart needs to seek shelter. It's a great tradegy, the poor experience of the western world with Christianity has made it forget God.

Tom Storm

I don't believe there are god's or that there is any meaning to life - except for the one you make yourself and for decades have practiced a form of minimalism (which stops short of asceticism). I take the view that objects own you, not the other way around. They are an unnecessary distraction. By choice I own minimal belongings and always look to cut back further. I know several atheists who hold a similar jaundiced view of materialism.

tim wood

Every worldly pleasure ( sensual, intellectual ) makes us forget God — Eskander

"God"? Please make clear what that is, or what you mean by it. It appears to be an important part of your OP. And I'm afraid that if you don't, no one else will know what you're talking about, and if you cannot, then you don't either.

Banno

↪Eskander

God created the world in order for his children to take pleasure in it.

Eat, drink and be merry. Asceticism is offensive to the lord, since it shows you do not fully appreciate his creation.

jgill

Lounge perhaps? :chin:

Agent Smith

Asceticism's rationale is rather simple: As you reject the physical (body), you (are supposed to) grow mentally/spiritually (mind). It's kinda like hunting - you block all escape routes save one but that's actually where a trap has been laid.

Outlander

You can't be "voluntarily" poor without not only being denied the side of life given to those who are poor non-voluntarily but also being slung the responsibilities (if not just to protect) those who are not have. Therefore, you are not "voluntarily" doing anything, especially if you can talk to people who will help you out.

Eskander

↪Tom Storm

I don't believe there are god's or that there is any meaning to life - except for the one you make yourself and for decades have practiced a form of minimalism (which stops short of asceticism). I take the view that objects own you, not the other way around. They are an unnecessary distraction. By choice I own minimal belongings and always look to cut back further. I know several atheists who hold a similar jaundiced view of materialism

I don't see how nihilism as a philosophy is practical, it leaves you with nothing. "Life has no meaning", now what ? Where do we go from here and is it even possible to give meaning to your life ? Guaranteed, most of us need to feel a sense of purpose in life, which prevents us from suicide. I don't see any point in proving the existence of God with philosophical arguments, theism gives you hope and a positive outlook on life. Atheism on the other hand paints the image of the universe as a cold, indifferent organism. I can cite studies while has shown how theism helps you psychologically in life.

The general atheist response to theism is pathetic, "we need evidence", "not convinced by philosophical arguments". Every metaphysical system is grounded in unjustified beliefs (you can always reduce it) , What's wrong with believing in a God without evidence and taking it as a starting point of your worldview. I hope one day, we will get rid of our pretentiousness and stop giving epistemology undue importance.

As for practicing minimalism, I think the Nietzschean response to nihilism is more vigorous and conducive to life if you are an atheist. But l don't see how Nietzsche is helpful for most people. His philosophy is for the elite class of mankind ( who truly have the potential to impose their worldwide on the world ). Most of us are incapable of such feats.

Eskander

↪tim wood

"God"? Please make clear what that is, or what you mean by it. It appears to be an important part of your OP. And I'm afraid that if you don't, no one else will know what you're talking about, and if you cannot, then you don't either.

God, the creator of everything. A Transcendent being, who isn't confined by spacetime. I described God in my OP as the source of peace and contentment, it is better for us to describe God using attributes. It is impossible to understand how God exists but it's possible to see understand him with attributes we have a good understanding of. (The most merciful, The Wisest, The most Just ) etc.

Tom Storm

I don't see how nihilism as a philosophy is practical, it leaves you with nothing. "Life has no meaning", now what ? Where do we go from here and is it even possible to give meaning to your life ? — Eskander

Few people get stuck on nihilism. Humans are meaning making creatures. We can't help it. The only meaning anyone gives their own life the one they pick subjectively. Doesn't matter if that be Allah or capitalism. In other words, all people base the meaning of their life on a subjective rationale which they believe works. Generally people are too busy with family, friends, work and hobbies for nihilism to be a sticking point.

Tom Storm

What's wrong with believing in a God without evidence and taking it as a starting point of your worldview. — Eskander

I lack a sensus divinitatis, so I can't take the idea of gods seriously. Please feel free to believe in gods without evidence, most people who believe do just this. It makes no difference to me.

Agent Smith

There are two ways of renouncing the world:

1. Interestingly: Direct asceticism. Outright denial of worldy pleasures. Renounce the world.

2. Boringly: Indirect asceticism. Immerse yourself in worldly pleasures. You'll eventually get bored. Renounce the world.

I think 2 is preferable (experience matters).

Tom Storm

↪Agent Smith

Good book on option 2 -Against Nature by Joris-Karl Huysmans. I believe it was Oscar Wilde's favourite novel.

Agent Smith

Good book on option 2 -Against Nature by Joris-Karl Huysmans. I believe it was Oscar Wilde's favourite novel. — Tom Storm

:up:

Perhaps the difference between 1 and 2 is how big one's brain is. A smart enough bloke could deduce (by pure thought alone) from making a few assumptions all the experiential content of worldly pleasures. There should exist an ascetic who knows exactly what an orgasm feels like without ever having one. :chin: Wittgenstein's private language?

Empiricist (Indirect ascetic): It was boring.
Rationalist (Direct ascetic): I knew it's boring.

Tom Storm

↪Agent Smith

Nice. But no matter how vast the intellect, a person probably always wonders what lived experience adds to knowledge. It's an old conundrum, hey? Even the super rich Wittgenstein kind of renounced luxury and material possessions, along with the company of other people choosing to live in monk-like simplicity and solitude for a period. Russell talks about Wittgenstein's ascetic cast of mind. Could he not have achieved the same end of using his powerful mind?

Agent Smith

But no matter how vast the intellect, a person probably always wonders what lived experience adds to knowledge. — Tom Storm

It's hard for me to comment but this I'll say: some people, the clever ones to be precise, when engaged in planning for the future, simulate the times to come, thinking of all possible ways it could go south and developing appropriate strategies to not have to fall back on plan B. Sometimes this is mental (predictive) exercise is so well done that when a person experiences the actual, it gives him a sense of déjà vu (it's that real). From here it's but a small step to deducing experiential content without having to actually live through it.

Tom Storm

↪Agent Smith

It's the old question about what experience might add to knowledge. As you may remember the old thought experiment Mary's Room explores something of this.

Personally in my own experience real life always adds something I was unable to derive through reason, but it may well depend on the nature of the experience. If enlightenment is a real thing then only experience of it will count. Ditto being able to hear or even something more quotidian like poverty. But many mundane affairs are probably fairly easy to explore imaginatively without being immersed their actuality.

180 Proof

↪Banno

:smirk:

I don't believe there are god's or that there is any meaning to life - except for the one you make yourself and for decades have practiced a form of minimalism (which stops short of asceticism). I take the view that objects own you, not the other way around. They are an unnecessary distraction. By choice I own minimal belongings and always look to cut back further. I know several atheists who hold a similar jaundiced view of materialism — Tom Storm

:fire: :up:

Agent Smith

↪Tom Storm

We don't see eye to eye on the issue then. Granted it's probably my circumstances that's doing the talking here, but I still feel logic can bridge the gap between thoughts of pudding and actually eating pudding (the proof of the pudding is in the eating).

Think of it in terms of science. Experimentation (experience) serves only to confirm what's already (believed to be) known.

baker

Asceticism's rationale is rather simple: As you reject the physical (body) — Agent Smith

In asceticism, you don't "reject the physical body", you reject some popular notions about who we are and what we supposedly need.

Agent Smith

In asceticism, you don't "reject the physical body", you reject some popular notions about who we are and what we supposedly need. — baker

Like...

baker

You can't be "voluntarily" poor without not only being denied the side of life given to those who are poor non-voluntarily but also being slung the responsibilities (if not just to protect) those who are not have. Therefore, you are not "voluntarily" doing anything, especially if you can talk to people who will help you out. — Outlander

Yes.
People who are in the position to voluntarily abstain from some worldly creature comforts aren't actually renouncing anything yet, even if it externally looks that way. For these people, asceticism would only really begin once they would start to renounce the desire for those worldly creature comforts, and once they would actually cut themselves off from obtaining those worldly creature comforts.

For example, having one spoon, one knife, one fork, one plate, one cup (like some modern minimalist practice) isn't yet asceticism as long as one has more than enough money (and regularly earns more of it) to buy dozens of new sets of cuttlery etc. and lives in a socioeconomic setting where they can buy those things.

baker

↪Agent Smith

Look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Which of them are actually needs?

Agent Smith

Look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Which of them are actually needs? — baker

Ascetics, I'm told, live on minimum wages in a manner of speaking - barely enough food & clothes to stay alive and these are body-related desiderata (half-rejected). The wants, those items higher up on Maslow's pyramid, are mind-related of course and so are on an ascetic's wish list.

The point, however, isn't what is true of an ascetic (half-rejection of the body) but what he truly desires (total rejection of the body). The ascetic has no option but to fulfil some of his body's needs/wants. You can't hold what is a necessity against someone.

Tom Storm

People who are in the position to voluntarily abstain from some worldly creature comforts aren't actually renouncing anything yet, even if it externally looks that way. — baker

I agree, In my case I am not renouncing anything, just doing without stuff. I prefer it that way. Of course I am but a vulgar physicalist and it's is just a passing phase of 30 years, so people might be right to speculate it's merely a hipster posture I might reverse at any time. :razz:

baker

it's merely a hipster posture I might reverse at any time. — Tom Storm

Is it or is it not? Men can be priests, monks for any amount of years, and then still disrobe. It's far from unheard of.

baker

The wants, those items higher up on Maslow's pyramid, are mind-related of course and so are on an ascetic's wish list. — Agent Smith

Then such a person is not an ascetic.

The point, however, isn't what is true of an ascetic (half-rejection of the body) but what he truly desires (total rejection of the body).

Eh? Where did you get that?

You can't hold what is a necessity against someone.

It's not clear where you're going with this.

Tom Storm

↪baker

:up:

180 Proof

Think of it in terms of science. Experimentation (experience) serves only to confirm what's already known. — Agent Smith

:chin: Riddle of induction? "Experiments" test – attempt to falsify, not "confirm" – predictions deduced from hypotheses. And, btw, this is not the same as "experience".

A Transcendent being, who isn't confined by spacetime. — Eskander

A zero-dimensional point rather than a concrete entity (or fact), ergo wholly imaginary ...

Every metaphysical system is grounded in unjustified beliefs (you can always reduce it) — Eskander

Such as the Law of Non-Contradiction (LNC)? :pray:

What's wrong with believing in a God without evidence and taking it as a starting point of your worldview.

Just 'making shit up to console yourself', Eskander, amounts to little more than a drug habit (i.e. philosophical suicide ~Camus); to wit: Thou Shalt Not Question The Questionable (and the corollary Thou Shalt Defend The Indefensible In The Name Of Believing The Unbelievable).

↪Tom Storm

:fire:

The secret of happiness, you see, is not found in seeking more, but in developing the capacity to enjoy less. — Socrates

Agent Smith

Riddle of induction? "Experiments" test – attempt to falsify, not "confirm" – predictions deduced from hypotheses. And, btw, this is not the same as "experience". — 180 Proof

I thought these - confirm & falsify - were two sides of the same coin! Plus, if the experimental findings match theory-based predictions, that does/should count, no? Note, I haven't said experiment proves theory.

Then such a person is not an ascetic. — baker

I'm sorry we disagree but it seems odd that it doesn't make sense to you? If someone at a party takes the smallest serving of a dish, one possible reason is that he doesn't actually like/want the grub.

Eh? Where did you get that? — baker

Why? It's not about getting it from somewhere. Deduction/abduction (vide infra).

Also, back at you, where did you get that? It's not like there's an expert out there who knows the whole truth about what asceticism is.

It's not clear where you're going with this. — baker

If it doesn't make sense to you, let's change the subject.

Eskander

↪Agent Smith

2. Boringly: Indirect asceticism. Immerse yourself in worldly pleasures. You'll eventually get bored. Renounce the world.

The second is far from boring, but it's definitely more meaningful as you have pointed out. Asceticism should not be caused by a sour grapes mindset. This way, you are not a passive observer in life, you are actively renouncing pleasure.

Voluntary poverty / asceticism is the greatest way to live life

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