I'm reading a book that describes what happened fundamentally to voting in the US and how disenfranchisement, framing, and resentment have allowed major corporations and political parties to dominate polling groups to vote for their own interests. — Shawn

Maybe they voted for it and therefore were able to reach such an alleged position by again exactly what you said. What is this idea that effort will never equal reward and it never should?

Would you steal someone’s wealth if there was no law or state prohibiting you from doing so?

Would you steal someone’s wealth if there was no law or state prohibiting you from doing so? — NOS4A2

If that special someone had far more than he needed and I and my kin had far less. It would be immoral not to steal from said heinous glutton as it would be an affront to the dignity of the self.

someone’s wealth — NOS4A2

Wealth accumulated via the exploitation of labor belongs not to the possessor but to the dispossessed.

Possessed - no matter how cutely the robber baron haloes his horns - does not signify justly possessed.

You are a thief.

The exploitation of labor is when you steal the fruits of someone else’s labor for your own benefit, like a thief, like a state.

You are a thief.

The exploitation of labor is when you steal the fruits of someone else’s labor for your own benefit, like a thief, like a state. — NOS4A2

Stay off the state's roads then. Do they have roads up there in the Arctic circle where you are?

Stay off the state's roads then. Do they have roads up there in the Arctic circle where you are?

Does it upset you when I criticize the state?

You're getting creepy now.

You’ve always been creepy. If you quit stealing my wealth I’ll quit using your roads.

You're just going to steal from the state?

I thought taxes paid for roads.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

No. Even in areas where I think the state is legitimate, I have never once thought to myself “the government sure did a good job.”

You're just going to steal from the state?
2hOptions
NOS4A2
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↪frank

I thought taxes paid for roads. — frank

The roads belong to the state. Aren't you stealing if you use them? if not, why not?

I would not be stealing if I use them because the roads are available to use by anyone, including those that don’t pay their taxes and foreigners. I would not be stealing anything because I have not taken anything that is not mine.

I would not be stealing if I use them because the roads are available to use by anyone, including those that don’t pay their taxes and foreigners. I would not be stealing anything because I have not taken anything that is not mine. — NOS4A2

You're using the state's property. They license you as a driver and i assume register your vehicle. Looks like you two have come to an agreement. :up:

No agreement here. I register my vehicle, get a license, drive on their roads because I have no other option. :down:

No agreement here. I register my vehicle, get a license, drive on their roads because I have no other option. :down: — NOS4A2

You do. Arctic circle. Your chances of surviving there are much better than in the Amazon. Less competition for life. You'll need a rifle.

I much rather stay and convince you to stop stealing my wealth. It’s in both of our interests.

much rather stay and convince you to stop stealing my wealth. It’s in both of our interests. — NOS4A2

As long as you realize it's your choice. First and Foremost, Freedom is a Realization.

The fact that a slave could choose to escape his masters doesn't make him any more free. Perhaps we have different conceptions of freedom.

You've found your foot's chained to the guy next to you. That's shit luck. You'll have to discover the freedom of your soul until you get the chance to free your body. :up:

The exploitation of labor is when you steal the fruits of someone else’s labor for your own benefit... — NOS4A2

...Like a large corporation with a billionaire CEO paying starvation wages.

It seems we agree.

You are a thief. — NOS4A2

Says Sheriff NOS4A2 of Nottingham.

Don't die a Disney-villain death.

... and call off Christmas!

Giving someone the right to control and regulate and make decisions on your behalf is not an act of altruism. — NOS4A2

Altruism is when you act with the interests of everyone in mind. Everyone votes for some decision or group because they believe that they will benefit the interests of everyone. Whether or not what or who they have voted for succeeds at that does not change the fact that the voter was well-intentioned.

It's a cakes and eating them problem.

Everyone prefers, all else being equal:
Low taxes to high taxes.
More government spending to less.
Fiscal responsibility to irresponsibility.

Unfortunately, all else cannot be equal, and one can only have 2 of the 3 at once, and one gets what one doesn't want for the 3rd.

More unfortunately, it is quite likely that equal numbers of people, even with the understanding of this, will choose each option as their lowest priority. This has the result that there is a strong majority in favour of all 3 options, and even a sensible electorate votes for the impossible. (This is called 'the tragedy of the arithmetic'.)

Even more unfortunately, electorates are not always sensible.

Most unfortunately, politicians lie and make impossible promises.

But alas, and alack, I fear that most people vote selfishly for what they think will be to their economic advantage; poor people vote for high government spending, and the wealthy vote for low taxes. Altruistic people would tend to vote on behalf of poor people I guess, feeling that the wealthy will benefit less from an increase in wealth. But I doubt they form a majority of voters. So no, voting is not inherently altruistic.

Altruism is when you act with the interests of everyone in mind. Everyone votes for some decision or group because they believe that they will benefit the interests of everyone. Whether or not what or who they have voted for succeeds at that does not change the fact that the voter was well-intentioned.

I don’t think altruism is when you act with the interests of everyone in mind, especially when it comes to voting. To me, to suppose that one can know what the best interests of everyone in mind are, and that a vote can help to bring them about, is the height of egoism.

then what do you consider altruism ?