Quality and effort shows whether it's Mozart's Requiem or the latest chart topper, and so do a lack of quality. — Bitter Crank
For me a key question isn't merely whether the art is any good but what the consumers of that art are getting out it. Maybe mediocre art provides transcendence for mediocre people? — Tom Storm
Except Thomas Kinkaid: His gooey, treacly, cloying sentimental village scenes are a criminal aggravation of the diabetes epidemic. — Bitter Crank
I'm asking you. You're the one making claims about merit that seem to hint at some kind objectivity. — Tom Storm
Or are you suggesting with your term 'collective process' that there is an intersubjective agreement about what art can be considered good? If so, then we might still need to work out how we arrive at good or bad if we are going to communicate about art. — Tom Storm
Then who cares what you or I think? And we can stop making judgements about what is art, except to ourselves. — Tom Storm
There is nothing mysterious about how this process works: we are social animals and we do look for clues among our people, our milieu, about what is considered good and not good.
— Bitter Crank
Sure, you're not wrong, but in the context of a philosophy forum and arguments about a subject, we can do better, no? Our job here is to transcend the gravitational pull of enculturation and group mores. — Tom Storm
So we cannot rightfully compare a piece from the classical canon and just any piece that is now played a lot on the radio or YT. The latter hasn't yet stood the test of time, while the former has. — baker
music is just sound frequencies of particular dynamics and duration; and so on. — baker
No, there is no comparing The Magic Flute and rap. There's no comparing a Bergman film and a porno, — Bitter Crank
Let's get one thing straight: Classical music (and classical Western art) aren't goddam capitalist, it isn't something for only the rich for starters, so don't be against it!
Why wouldn't we like the music of our own heritage? — ssu
What is it we are prepared to countenance as art and therefore assess as an aesthetic work or statement and how do we make an assessment of its relative merits? — Tom Storm
I dislike most contemporary art I have seen. Mainly because I find it dull. — Tom Storm
If you were to find the work 'Equivalent V111' by Carl Andre (basically 120 house bricks arranged in a pattern) dumped on a building site it would just be a pile of bricks. If you found a Rodin sculpture dumped in the same location it would still be art despite being context free. Does this add anything to our understanding of definitions? — Tom Storm
As does everything else. But can't we still make a case for who is the greatest ancient Greek writer and why, even though their civilisation and tradition is extinct?
That's because you're not getting involved in it, you don't bother to empathize with it, and most of all, you see no problem with such non-involvement. — baker
Lady Gaga said that her aim has been to become a star. She consciously chose the genre of pop music to achieve this aim.
She is fluent in several genres, but she specifically chose pop music to perfect this form, for the purpose of her aim.
I think much pop music is subversive. Sometimes, musicians will openly admit to this, other times hint to it. One also needs to master the art of subversion to "enjoy" this music as a listener.
↪Tom Storm
Except Thomas Kinkaid: His gooey, treacly, cloying sentimental village scenes are a criminal aggravation of the diabetes epidemic.
— Bitter Crank
See, his pictures don't bother me at all. I view them the same way I view any art. I assume subversion. (After all, Kinkade was an alcoholic and died as a consequence of it.) — baker
Brilliant ! — Amity
I have never learned the art of review. My read-a-long feedback to the stories is nowhere near a proper review. I felt uncomfortable with that description by some.
For me, it was just like being in a discussion. Relating and trying to understand the text. Asking questions of the author and self. Interacting with other readers. Viewing other perspectives.
Mostly, this led to greater understanding and appreciation of the writers' own process. — Amity
Seems you don't go to classical concerts, I presume, when you write it like that. :snicker:We shouldn't, insofar as we don't belong to the socio-economic class in whose domain classical Western art is nowadays, ie. the elite.
You cannot just go to a classical concert if you don't have the appropriate socio-economic status for it. It can even happen that people will hiss behind your back, "What is she doing here?!" At least in Europe, people have a very sharp sense of socio-economic class and can recognize a person's class just by looking at them. — baker
I wrote the one for "Titus Groan" because it's a hard book to stick with and I wanted to give it people as a gift. I thought if I gave them that review it might inspire them to read it. I also write reviews to examine my own experience of reading. Why did I like this book so much? Just like the writing I do here on the forum, it is a way to become more intellectually self-aware. — T Clark
:up:Bitter Crank says he started this thread as a joke. He, and I, are surprised how interesting and enlightening it has turned out to be. There are a few people here who seem really interested in the philosophy of art; including literature, poetry, music, architecture, visual arts, sculpture. There have been a couple of good threads recently. I'd like to see more. — T Clark
I now have the trilogy on my kindle. — Amity
Agree that the creative aspect of philosophy could be explored more. Encouraging to see an increase in interest. T — Amity
In my youth, ending in let's say, 1968 at 22. I had not seen much in the way of serious films or serious dramatic or cinema art. I grew up in a very small town in rural Minnesota and attended a state college in a relatively small college town. "Art films" were few and far between. But about this time a boyfriend in Madison, Wisconsin introduced me to Bergman. Madison was then a much more radical left bohemian place than in recent years. Leonard was trying to educate me into being a more sophisticated boyfriend. I appreciated it.
The upper midwest, places like Minnesota and Wisconsin, are kind of Bergman territory -- chilly Scandinavian influence all over the place. Maybe that has something to do with it.
Fanny and Alexander and Secenth Seal are my favorites. But since the early 70s I've seen hundreds of film, most of which were not particularly Bergmanesque, and my tastes aren't the same now. Bergman got at a kind of gloomy religiosity which feels very familiar to me. — Bitter Crank
Bergman got at a kind of gloomy religiosity which feels very familiar to me.
Seems you don't go to classical concerts, I presume, when you write it like that. — ssu
And that kind of attitude "What is she doing here?!" is quite present in any kind of pop / trance / hip hop / whatever concert.
That music would have "appropriate socio-economic status" is one way we build up these perceptions of others. Basically it's nonsense.
Why do you assume subversion? — Tom Storm
I find it interesting that some art can only be understood as subversion or ironically for it to be 'enjoyed' by people.
If they thought the artist was totally sincere the work would be hated.
For example, for a piano concerto, I would pick a seat in the front row right before the piano, so that I could focus on the piano best. Or I would collect and compare different interpretations of the same piece, and I would get a thrill out of watching out for how each interpretation handled a particular passage. — baker
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