After Putin's stadium performance, flags dumped into garbage. Sometimes a picture tells a lot, actually. — ssu
That it's a poor corrupt country where the people have been long angry about their ruling politicians? That even those who have promised them change have disappointed too? — ssu
when the leader who starts a war against a country says the "country is artificial", there's not much appeasement that the country could have taken to avoid the war. — ssu
Surrendering would have only enforced the idea of Ukrainians being "lesser-Russians" or "little-Russians". — ssu
But as you so well put it, this is the thinking of many here. — ssu
Rather, it's what you haven't said. You keep talking about Ukrainians as if they were the only ones dying, the only ones who can stop this, the only ones in need of surrendering... What about the Russians? Won't you advise them to surrender too? — Olivier5
I think it would be here important for you to see the sea-change what has happened in Ukraine, even before this invasion. As I've said earlier, before 2014 Vladimir Putin was very respected and popular politician in Ukraine. Afterwards not. Russia tried to instill insurrection in 8 regions and was successful in two (Donetsk and Luhansk). Now after this large scale invasion, I don't think there's much enthusiasm to join Russia. That's the funny thing when you start invading countries ,annexing territories and bombing people.Not to the millions of Ukrainians who support more integration with Russia. not to mention the millions more who wouldn't give a shit about being considered "Little Russians" if it meant their sons and daughters were not killed in war. — Isaac
12. Residents of territories under the armed groups’ control are particularly vulnerable
to human rights abuses, which are exacerbated by the absence of the rule of law and any
real protection. OHCHR continued to receive and verify allegations of killings, arbitrary
and incommunicado detention, torture and ill-treatment in the ‘Donetsk people’s republic’
and ‘Luhansk people’s republic’. In these territories, armed groups have established
parallel ‘administrative structures’ and have imposed a growing framework of ‘legislation’
which violate international law, as well as the Minsk Agreements.
13. The ‘Donetsk people’s republic’ and ‘Luhansk people’s republic’ continued to deny
OHCHR access to places of detention. OHCHR is concerned about the situation of
individuals deprived of their liberty in the territories controlled by armed groups, due to the
complete absence of due process and redress mechanisms. Of particular concern are those
currently held in the former Security Service building in Donetsk and in the buildings
currently occupied by the ‘ministries of state security’ of the ‘Donetsk people’s republic’
and ‘Luhansk people’s republic’.
14. OHCHR is also increasingly concerned about the lack of space for civil society
actors to operate and for people to exercise their rights to freedoms of expression, religion,
peaceful assembly and association in the territories controlled by armed groups. In January
2016, the ‘ministry of state security’ carried out a wave of arrests and detention of civil
society actors in the ‘Donetsk people’s republic’.
15. OHCHR documented allegations of enforced disappearances, arbitrary and
incommunicado detention, and torture and ill-treatment, perpetrated with impunity by
Ukrainian law enforcement officials, mainly by elements of the Security Service of Ukraine
(SBU). OHCHR urges the Ukrainian authorities to ensure prompt and impartial
investigation into each reported case of human rights violations, as well as the prosecution
of perpetrators. Accountability is critical to bring justice for victims, curtail impunity, and
foster long-lasting peace.
Hard to tell. Likely at least Putin will declare it a huge victory in any case and the objectives he had have been gloriously met by the victorious Russian army.which of the following do you think is the more likely outcome?
A) Ukraine eventually decides the cost is too much and gives in?
If this is the case, continuing to fight was most likely not in their interests.
B) Putin eventually decides the cost is too much and gives in? — Baden
No. But this is the scariest outcome. From the realpolitik view, an option is for the West to keep Russia bleeding in Ukraine. At least then it isn't threatening other countries. Luckily there is the agency of Ukraine: they are the ones fighting and material support doesn't mean anything if there isn't the will to fight (as seen in the rapid collapse of Afghanistan). If Ukraine agrees on halting the war either from their offer or from an offer Putin has made, nobody else can say something about it.I presume you would not support the contiuation of a pointless war of attrition, the only appreciable result of which is greatly increased levels of suffering among the most vulnerable? — Baden
You're not quite rational if you believe that anything said here can have any impact on the battlefield. — Olivier5
You keep talking about Ukrainians as if they were the only ones dying, the only ones who can stop this, the only ones in need of surrendering... What about the Russians? Won't you advise them to surrender too? — Olivier5
Putin has surely his limitations on what he can do. Don't think otherwise. — ssu
. I don't believe we're built for a confrontation with Putin and I don't believe he doesn't know that. — Baden
My first instinct is to want to support Ukraine in every possible way against Russia, but, ultimately, the only effective support would be direct military NATO involvement, which I'm against due to the risk of a wider war. So, my cold assessment is that the Ukranians are in an impossible situation and at some point will be forced to acquiesce to all or most of Russian demands. — Baden
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