I don't think people really understand the severity of the situation outside of what is actively going on in Ukraine. — Christoffer

Why do countries have so many so powerful weapons and so many soldiers, if not because they have every intent to use them?

Nobody of any relevance in this world believes that everything can be settled through dialogue, least of all the US and NATO.

Putin's actions are of one of a delusional lunatic. He's up there with Stalin, Hitler and the rest. I'm deadly serious in that he needs to go. He needs to be put down.

Right. When Russians defend their country, they are the bad guys. When Americans defend their country, they are the good guys.



Do you even listen to yourself? The ease with which you demand the death of someone???

China has a lot more to lose on international trade than Russia. — Christoffer

Unlike the rest of the world, China and Russia actually can be self-sufficient.

Maybe this will push us together, Swedish and Finnish alliance, strengthening our entire line of defense. — Christoffer

Our politicians agree with this. But it's actions, not words that are important.

And there are historical experiences of this. We here often forget that there were Swedish volunteers fighting in our Winter War and Continuation War. And notable portion of Swedish Air Force fighters participated in the Winter War with (Flygflottilj 19 and it's 5 Hawker Hearts and 12 Gloster Gladiators (with the three crowns insignia covered up). This actually was important as there were absolutely no Finnish fighter aircraft to spare to defend the aerospace over Lapland.

(Swedish fighters during the Winter War in Lapland)


Yet let's see.

Some of our politicians might still insist that this isn't our mess, we are out this picture. Or that let's not make it worse by angering the bear. And that our non-alignment policy has worked well. And the fact is, it's not that Putin has territorial ambitions over Sweden or even Finland. His ambition is to control the foreign policy of our countries, to put a wedge between us and NATO countries. He would be extremely happy, if Finnish government would start acting the same way as it did during the Cold War: never saying a bad thing about Russia and being a mouthpiece for at certain issues. That is the real issue with our countries.

What we need now is genuine leadership from our leaders, not denials that everything is OK...with us and Russia.

I think NATO's response so far has been pathetic. Ukraine is not a member, but surely an ally, and a request from them for 100,000 NATO troops on Poland's border to help could not have been refused. Putin only understands one language - force. Those troops might have given him pause, but now he's laughing at the weak timid West and ready to roll his tanks as far as he can get away with.

A week ago I thought his aims were simply to 'free' Luhansk and Donetsk, returning them to Russia and scoring a hit with his voters. But now it seems he's going full Hitler. Commentators have noted how no-one in his inner circle stands up to him so he's becoming more and more megalomaniacal.

NATO need to step up fast. Sanctions - unless they paralyse the whole Russian economy won't do it. Nothing less will stop Putin. If the West let him take Ukraine he won't stop there..

Russia only wants destruction. — javi2541997

Do you even listen to yourself? The ease with which you project evil intent onto other people????

China and Russia actually can be self-sufficient. — baker

Russia can be self-sufficient, but not be able to advance in technology in the same way if they cut off the supply of semiconductors. However, of course, if China invades Taiwan, they have their own factory for that. But China is more deeply ingrained with international trade. China also has A LOT of investments in other countries and if they even smell a movement to sanction against China, that might lead to them breaking with Russia.

Thing is... Putin and Xi Jinping aren't really best friends. Right now it's more of a "my enemy's enemy" kind of deal. There's also a lot of political movement inside China where plenty of critics towards Xi Jinping has been formed due to his attacks on Chinese billionaires and businesses. China seems very interested, as a whole nation, to move towards more trade with the west, not less. If Xi Jinping gets removed later this year, that might shift the balance against Putin. That would be a true crisis for Putin and Russia if sanctions still hold. Remember, Putin wants his billionaire friends to be happy, he doesn't give a shit about the population of Russia.

Remember, Putin wants his billionaire friends to be happy, he doesn't give a shit about the population of Russia. — Christoffer

Clearly, you don't understand much about Russia, or China.

These nations may be capitalist, but they are not the kind of simple-minded, greedy consumers as Americans and the West in general.



And again, do you even listen to yourself? With ease, you demand the death of another person, and here, you impute evil motivations on a person. Have you no shame?

What we need now is genuine leadership from our leaders, not denials that everything is OK...with us and Russia. — ssu

At least our people start to talk about nations as friends, as "one people" more now. I don't mind it, I actually would think that a nordic union, almost like the Kalmar union would be something positive. Imagine all of us joining together, keeping our nations as states with sovereignty, but a as a union, closer to the style of USA than EU. Almost no borders, just us people up here in the north as one people. Imagine if this union was then part of EU and also Nato. Imagine the power of some of the top nations on world's "life quality lists" grouping together. I think that would be a wonderful idea, we have all more in common than what makes us different.

Do you even listen to yourself? The ease with which you project evil intent onto other people???? — baker

What?

These nations may be capitalist, but they are not the kind of simple-minded, greedy consumers as Americans and the West in general. — baker

I'm not saying they are simple-minded, how do you draw that conclusion? Do you think everyone else is simple-minded? You think the consequences for Russia will be that of simple-minded people?

And again, do you even listen to yourself? With ease, you demand the death of another person, and here, you impute evil motivations on a person. Have you no shame? — baker

There's a war going on with an aggressor who's invading and killing Ukrainians as we speak. You think I'm gonna sit here and be an apologist for someone like Putin? Treat him with respect? Like he treats Ukraine with respect? The fuck is wrong with you?

There are lines crossed when there's no morale choice but to remove a player that imposes threats of the scale he does and who's at the moment killing innocent people. I would say that when he indirectly threatens, with what all experts agree on, nuclear weapons towards anyone trying to help Ukraine. That is a fucking line crossed.

Are you a Putin apologist? Is that it?

What a mess. This is lunacy...

Read again what I said.

What you seem to never understand is that you are using the "crimes of the US" as a kind of argument for downplaying the acts of Putin, for which I do not understand why you do? — Christoffer

I've already explained. Any response to Putin doesn't happen in a vacuum. If you have a problem with Bullying in your playground you don't solve it by inviting more bullies to the yard. It matters what is done in response. We can sit in our armchairs and complain about Putin all we like. If you want me to condemn him, then fine, I condemn him - I don't notice a single thing having changed in the world as a result.

Why are you continuing to argue based on that fact that others do bad things? — Christoffer

As above. The 'others' are the people who's help you'll be invoking to fight Putin. If they also do bad things, as you seem ready to admit, then we'd best be damn sure their 'bad things' aren't worse than Putin's 'bad things' before we sanction their involvement. That's why I'm comparing the two - because we've got two bad options and it's childishly naive to simply see only one of them and say, as a result of this blindness, that we must automatically choose the other.

So? What's your point based on the current events? — Christoffer

As above. An American-led response (which it will be) is likely to go the way of all other American-led responses, which have been historically, unmitigated disasters involving massive loss of life, economic destruction and the rampant profiteering of multi-national corporations.

Based on all the people in prison, all people poisoned, all people silenced. Based on all intelligence about Putin, I would say that his removal from power, the removal of his closest allies would be the best — Christoffer

And who will carry out this removal? And who will be put in his place? Shall we call on Thor? Our list of superheroes willing to carry out regime change with only the good of humanity as reward is somewhat thin.

since when has the US taken over another nation and claimed it as their own? — Christoffer

Like it matters which flag is flying over the parliament. We're not playing Risk™. There's real people living in these countries. What matters to them is whether they have a roof over their head and food on the table. If America (IMF, ECB etc) suck the welfare of the country dry to pay the interest on the reconstruction 'loans' and leech out the countries resources so that they can't provide employment or social care, then I don't think they're going to give a shit about the lack of an American flag on the passport.

Notwithstanding that, you asked...

Remember how much Putin actually risks losing by invading Ukraine, then figure out what the reasons are. — Christoffer

In 1990 the then Secretary of state for the US James Baker met with Gorbachev and agreed that NATO influence would move "not one inch Eastward"

Since then, every US president has annexed a further Eastern Block nation under NATO, with Ukraine being one of the few remaining.

In 1992 Ukraine joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council. In 1994 it joined the NATO-led Partnership for Peace. In 1997 it established the NATO-Ukraine Commission. In 2009the Declaration to Complement the Charter (the previous commission's foundation). In 2019 Ukraine’s constitution was amended to codify its commitment to join NATO.

So what does Putin want? Perhaps one ounce of honour from the West to it's promises?

Besides which, we don't need to know his reasons, only to weigh options. If they're all crap then it's no good bleating about how crap just one of them is.

It's a fact that NATO influence is creeping Eastard despite assurances that it wouldn't and it's a fact that Ukrainian militia have attacked and committed human rights atrocities on pro-Russian factions in parts of the country (this from Amnesty, not pro-Russian propaganda)

If we don't want the madman to invade any more countries, here's an idea. Why don't we stop poking him with NATO-shaped stick, stop funding neo-nazi groups to reduce support, stop making agreements to extend influence to his neighbours, maybe then we could use our newfound moral high-ground to condemn his political shenanigans.

We are already doing it. Unfortunately, the only real sanctions working might be the next phase. Total isolation of economic mobility. It will tank the global economy, but it might save lives. — Christoffer

Where have I heard that argument before? Again, you're not weighing options. It's 'Stop Putin at all costs!'. Right out of the current playbook - hype up one specific immanent crisis and legitimise the response to it without any sensible attempt to look at the consequences.

everyone in their right mind and knowledge is laughing at his current cock measuring behavior so if the invasion, in short term or long, becomes an embarrassment, it will shake the foundation of his power. How long then will the people be "ok" with his rule? Why remove a leader of power when you can suffocate his leadership?

We cannot do much about this situation other than what we are already doing. — Christoffer

Then what exactly is the point of your posts? Are you just wanting to whip up a more anti-Russian rhetoric for your own comfort?

What does that prove? US "de-escalation" usually fails if there are interests for US within the area of de-escalation. However, Putin's actions are not some proxy war action as I've mentioned before. This is an act that calls back to WWII aggressions. It's not the same thing as proxy wars fought over oil or imperialistic reasons. — Christoffer

Seriously? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60473233

If I tell you that we are seeing movements of aggressions around the Baltic sea, if we see aggressions from Russia that based on all military strategic analysts, points to a serious risk of actual large scale war in Europe, are you seriously saying that this is like the act of "domestic abuse" based on our alliance with US within this conflict trying to push back Putin's aggressions? — Christoffer

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The history of US involvement has been nothing but a litany of misery and exploitation and you're saying that this time it'll be different without giving any reason at all why America has suddenly had a change of heart.

I see your point of trying to understand both Russia and China policies or affairs but I guess Ukraine's sovereignty is the big issue here and how it is being raped

There's a war going on with an aggressor who's invading and killing Ukrainians as we speak. You think I'm gonna sit here and be an apologist for someone like Putin? Treat him with respect? Like he treats Ukraine with respect? The fuck is wrong with you?

There are lines crossed when there's no morale choice but to remove a player that imposes threats of the scale he does and who's at the moment killing innocent people. I would say that when he indirectly threatens, with what all experts agree on, nuclear weapons towards anyone trying to help Ukraine. That is a fucking line crossed. — Christoffer

The West has been intensely building up contempt against Russia for at least 80 years.
For all this time, the West, and specifically the US, has made a concerted effort to consistently ridicule the Russians, in every way imaginable.

And yet we're supposed to believe that the West are well-intended and morally upright!

I see your point of trying to understand both Russia and China policies or affairs but I guess Ukraine's sovereignty is the big issue here and how it is being raped — javi2541997

Ukraine's sovereignty? A country that slavishly seeks the approval and protection of others and which depends economically on a country it considers its enemy? That's sovereignty?

Russian Celebrities, Public Figures Speak Out Against Ukraine War

(The Moscow Times is an independent Moscow-based English language newspaper that's often highly critical of the regime)

Following are some quotes from a couple of the original documents mentioned in the above article (Google translated):

From 150+ scientists:

An open letter from Russian scientists and science journalists against the war with Ukraine

We, Russian scientists and scientific journalists, declare a strong protest against the hostilities launched by the armed forces of our country on the territory of Ukraine. This fatal step leads to huge human losses and undermines the foundations of the established system of international security. The responsibility for unleashing a new war in Europe lies entirely with Russia. There is no rational justification for this war. Attempts to use the situation in Donbass as a pretext for launching a military operation do not inspire any confidence. It is clear that Ukraine does not pose a threat to the security of our country. The war against her is unfair and frankly senseless.

Ukraine has been and remains a country close to us. Many of us have relatives, friends and scientific colleagues living in Ukraine. Our fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers fought together against Nazism. Unleashing a war for the sake of the geopolitical ambitions of the leadership of the Russian Federation, driven by dubious historiosophical fantasies, is a cynical betrayal of their memory.

We respect Ukrainian statehood, which rests on really working democratic institutions. We treat the European choice of our neighbors with understanding. We are convinced that all problems in relations between our countries can be resolved peacefully. Having unleashed the war, Russia doomed itself to international isolation, to the position of a pariah country. This means that we, scientists, will no longer be able to do our job normally: after all, conducting scientific research is unthinkable without full cooperation with colleagues from other countries.

The isolation of Russia from the world means further cultural and technological degradation of our country in the complete absence of positive prospects. War with Ukraine is a step to nowhere. It is bitter for us to realize that our country, which made a decisive contribution to the victory over Nazism, has now become the instigator of a new war on the European continent. We demand an immediate halt to all military operations directed against Ukraine. We demand respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Ukrainian state. We demand peace for our countries.

Let's do science, not war!

https://trv-science.ru/2022/02/we-are-against-war/

And from 150 local authority deputies in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Samara, etc:

Against the war

Fellow citizens! We, the deputies elected by the people, unreservedly condemn the attack of the Russian army on Ukraine. This is an unparalleled atrocity for which there is and cannot be justification.

The decision to attack was made personally by Russian President Vladimir Putin. We are convinced that the citizens of Russia did not give him such a mandate.

War with Ukraine will lead to catastrophic consequences. Thousands of people will die, be injured and maimed, cities dear to many Russians will be destroyed. Our country is waiting for the condemnation of the world community, isolation, rising prices and poverty. Hopes for a good life in Russia are crumbling before our eyes.

We urge you not to participate in the aggression and not to approve of it. Please don't be silent: only massive popular condemnation can stop the war.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RQwoxg7tkjM-4BhuSLftyUaPfSDPd8ONECnMtFhqkgo/

Maybe a letter from some relatively powerless local authority members from around the corner in the neighborhood doesn't count for much (I'm not sure), but it's something.

There's also this statement from Russian journalists, published via Meduza, which is Russian but based in Latvia:

https://meduza.io/news/2022/02/24/eta-avantyura-prineset-gore-v-semi-tysyach-lyudey-rossiyskie-nezavisimye-smi-vystupili-protiv-voyny-s-ukrainoy

It's good to see people inside Russia oppose this - and makes sense too.

Nevertheless, what is the actual end-goal here? To fracture Ukraine or what?

This may go on for quite some time.

Ukraine's sovereignty? A country that slavishly seeks the approval and protection of others and which depends economically on a country it considers its enemy? That's sovereignty? — baker

Sovereignty should not depend on economical terms neither interests. I am only defending the Ukranian population not their puppet president or the fake governors of Donetsk and Lugansk. I want to make clear the point of history and culture of Ukraine.
According to your point of view... What about Bosnia? Don't they deserve sovereignty doesn't matter they have difficulties? What about Haiti?

I've already explained. Any response to Putin doesn't happen in a vacuum. — Isaac

What is the reason for his current invasion according to you?

If they also do bad things, as you seem ready to admit, then we'd best be damn sure their 'bad things' aren't worse than Putin's 'bad things' before we sanction their involvement. — Isaac

Explain to me what bad things that compare to the invasion of a free and independent nation like we see now? Explain to me how Putin's actions can't be harshly criticized without the need to mention that others also do bad things or put them on a freakin scale to measure before acting. Seriously?

An American-led response (which it will be) is likely to go the way of all other American-led responses, which have been historically, unmitigated disasters involving massive loss of life, economic destruction and the rampant profiteering of multi-national corporations. — Isaac

What has this to do with responding to what Putin is doing right now? What he might do later? So we shouldn't do anything, grab popcorns and watch Russia burn down Ukraine with the hope that Putin won't snap after he's done in Ukraine? You live inside an argument with no current connection to the actual real-world events going on right now.

And who will carry out this removal? And who will be put in his place? Shall we call on Thor? Our list of superheroes willing to carry out regime change with only the good of humanity as reward is somewhat thin. — Isaac

Spare me your attempts at downplaying my intellect. I'm speaking of different levels of threat. If Putin acts on his threat of nuclear power, then that is essentially the start of a world war and a swift operation to take him out is a realistic outcome. Before that, there might very well be a coup within Russia that does it if sanctions push Russia to the brink of economic collapse. Depends on if it's long term or short term. But I don't think you understand how dangerous Putin really is. I find it funny that people speak like this of Hitler and Stalin, but trying to point to actions RIGHT NOW that is being acted out by a similar dictator leader is "fantasy".

There's real people living in these countries. What matters to them is whether they have a roof over their head and food on the table. If America (IMF, ECB etc) suck the welfare of the country dry to pay the interest on the reconstruction 'loans' and leech out the countries resources so that they can't provide employment or social care, then I don't think they're going to give a shit about the lack of an American flag on the passport. — Isaac

What point are you trying to make here? That there are people living in these countries that will suffer? Well Ukraine is suffering right now, what's your actual point?

In 1990 the then Secretary of state for the US James Baker met with Gorbachev and agreed that NATO influence would move "not one inch Eastward" — Isaac

In a time of peace, not with a leader like Putin. The game has changed since Putin came into power, his changes to Russia don't reflect the basis for the agreement. It's easy to promise something when there's a mutual ground, but Putin changed all that.

So what does Putin want? Perhaps one ounce of honour from the West to it's promises? — Isaac

Not with the aggressions he's conducting. You mention Ukraine seeking membership in NATO in 2019, well that is after Russia already took part in Ukraine in armed conflict.

The promise was made to a nation on the brink of becoming an ally, Putin does not and has never acted as an ally.

He wants to build the Russian empire back up to its glory days. I think you have singled in on one single reason for his actions that I hear no expert on eastern politics and Russian historians talk in regards to Putin. They are pretty clear on what his intentions are, but you don't care about those reasons, you seem to know the truth better? It might be a reason, or an excuse for Putin, but his intentions are far from "just wanting some respect", he wants the empire back.

It's a fact that NATO influence is creeping Eastard despite assurances that it wouldn't — Isaac

An example of this is us in Sweden who isn't part of NATO yet. But since Putin's military is always breaking our borders, flying with bomb planes and stalking the waters outside of Stockholm with submarines, there's a growing need to be part of NATO. You don't seem to understand that NATO isn't expanding as a way to shift power, it is we in Sweden who would want it, it's because of how aggressive Putin is towards Europe. If the reason for the line of NATO creeping forward east comes from nations WANTING to join to guard themselves, that is a direct consequence of Putin's actions, not NATO. It's not NATO who decides which nations that are part of it, it's the nations themselves who decide if they want to join NATO.

And since Putin's aggressions just keep getting worse, there's no point in holding onto an agreement that is seriously outdated.

Why don't we stop poking him with NATO-shaped stick — Isaac

You don't seem to understand Putin's intentions. I mean, you can talk to an expert on Putin and Russia if you like, but you don't seem to understand what drives him. You have your own made-up idea of why Putin is doing what he is doing.

It's 'Stop Putin at all costs!'. Right out of the current playbook - hype up one specific immanent crisis and legitimise the response to it without any sensible attempt to look at the consequences. — Isaac

You have no fucking idea what is going on right now do you? Do you have any notion of what Russia is doing around the other borders towards Europe? You think this is a game to legitimize a response because "that's the plan"? What's your angle here? Because I don't understand how you are reasoning in light of what is happening at the moment.

Then what exactly is the point of your posts? Are you just wanting to whip up a more anti-Russian rhetoric for your own comfort? — Isaac

And what is your point? Apologising Putin's actions for your own comfort? Is this invasion hurting your thesis of how the world works? That all of a sudden we actually have a dictator who's acting like 20th-century empire leaders and it breaks any thesis of a world balanced by only economic proxy wars and invisible aggressive actions by the world's largest nations and economies?

My point is that Putin isn't some balanced leader who acts like the rest, he is a lunatic, he is dangerous and the question is how to stop him. You want to call that an off-brand Marvel movie, fine, just don't underestimate the actions of a lunatic leader with nukes making actual threats. That's just naive.

Seriously? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60473233 — Isaac

So? What does that prove? That the US only do this for oil prices? You do understand that the surge in oil prices hit US hard as well? How does that function with the thesis that the US sanctions would benefit them?

The history of US involvement has been nothing but a litany of misery and exploitation and you're saying that this time it'll be different without giving any reason at all why America has suddenly had a change of heart. — Isaac

The difference might be that we actually want US with us in Europe to handle this conflict. And that Europe are allies with US.

All you do is make blank statements with little regard to the dynamics of geopolitics. This is the first time since WWII that we have a full scale war in Europe. But you say "this time it will be different". This time it is fucking different, yes.

The West has been intensely building up contempt against Russia for at least 80 years.
For all this time, the West, and specifically the US, has made a concerted effort to consistently ridicule the Russians, in every way imaginable.

And yet we're supposed to believe that the West are well-intended and morally upright! — baker

You don't seem to understand that this is all Putin. Even the Russian people were against an invasion of Ukraine. All the Russians I've heard from really didn't want this to happen. Putin deserves all the shit he gets. And the growing contempt might have it's reason, especially since Putin has been building a mafia state out of Russia. So we went from the Soviet regime, which I don't think people can really defend, that's not some "western contempt", the Soviet regime was shit in every way possible.

Then it broke and we went into the 90s with a fresh feeling of Russia being part of the world, like, it was a good time seeing Russia getting on its feet. Did you forget about that time? Then came Putin and started building his mafia empire out of Russia, just as Russia started to climb out of it's economic depression.

But Putin isn't bad because we do bad things as well. That's your point I guess? Can't you just, understand that Putin is bad, I mean REALLY bad? Turn on the news please and answer me in what way you suppose the west's "badness" help mitigate the "badness" of Putin?

Because all I see is someone invading another nation to expand his ego. Let me know if you have similar examples from the west. Like, a war started out of lunatic ideas of a dictator in the west. Who assassinates his own people if they oppose him and change laws to benefit himself and his friends. But... remember the west, remember that they are bad too. We might need to focus on removing this threat before trying to fix the "badness" of the west.

Looks like the Western propaganda has done its job on you.

Nevertheless, what is the actual end-goal here? — Manuel

To return to the glory days of the Russian empire. According to those who have done research on Putin and his intentions.

People seem to not understand the simple reason that Putin acts like the old-time empire building dictators. He wants to expand the borders of Russia. Ukraine is just one part of this ambition. My personal belief is that Putin knows he's getting old and he wants to do this now so he can be remembered for bringing back Russia as an empire. Regardless of what the costs will be, even to the population of Russia.

He is a lunatic.

Looks like the Western propaganda has done its job on you. — baker

Isn't it easy to dismiss others like that? Turn on the news before continuing with your Putin apologistic ideas. Just tell them they are indoctrinated by propaganda. Just like you are indoctrinated by the Russian propaganda machine. I mean, Putin recorded his invasion video at the same time he did his video talking about further diplomacy. He's playing his own game, he doesn't give a fuck, but people swallow his words like truth. It's disgusting.

A country either has sovereignity or doesn't. If it cannot take care of itself, then it doesn't have sovereignity. It's not posisble to take away something from a country that a country doesn't have.

What's disgusting is the level of discourse at which you and your cronies want to exist.

So what does Putin want? Perhaps one ounce of honour from the West to it's promises? — Isaac

The West has always been dishonorable toward Russia.

@baker's got daddy-issues with putin

The West has always been dishonorable toward Russia. — baker

Towards Russia? It's towards PUTIN! What is it that you don't understand? You think Russia and Putin is one and the same? All of this is the actions of one man, a dictator leader! Not even the Russian people want to have a war, but he does it anyway and if anyone challenge his leadership he either assassinates them or put them in prison. What are you actually defending here?

baker's got daddy-issues with putin — Changeling

Obviously.