Since we are part of a philosophy forum debate not an ordinary political debate, I don't think that discussing with Nazis about their views is a way to legitimize them. Besides in this case I'm questioning Apollonuts' legitimacy claims which, among others, spread filo-Russian imperialist propaganda in contradiction to his own principles. So I think I'm done with him ;)

Yeah and ths US and NATO "likely have not thought about" this, but you, random ass person who says wrong things all the time on the internet, have. Please excuse me while I laugh to infinity. — Streetlight

Likely have not thought about = Likely have not planned to do

This from the guy who until the end didn't believe that Russia would attack, that it all was just hype from the US.

Weak.

This from the guy who until the end didn't believe that Russia would attack, that it all was just hype from the US. — ssu

Don't be naïve. Russia did not actually attack. It's all fake news from NATO. @Streetlight was right.

He usually knows best, especially when it comes to the sexual life of marsupials but also Russia, this land of milk and honey.

Yeah, NATO is "not likely to have planned" for the literal reason for their entire existence. Uh huh. At least make the things you pull out of the sky semi-fathomable.

And it really was hype from the US, whether or not Russia attacked or not. They could not have been more excited. They are even more so now. They get two more nation whores in Sweden and Finland to fuck.

This assumes that a victorious Russia would not have jailed, tortured, rapped and assassinated the civilians under their control. — Olivier5

The alternative assumes a war wouldn't have lead to worse.

The Ukrainian people were given a shit choice - lose part of your country to Russian rule (and all that entails), or keep things as they are territorially, a barely significant improvement in government, but lose thousands of civilians and soldiers and hand over your economy to foreign power to be asset stripped and enslaved.

Anyone who genuinely gives a shit about Ukrainians would bemoan the injustice of that choice. Those who are nothing but stooges for US foreign policy bemoan only the side which suits their narrative.

a barely significant improvement in government — Isaac

Significance is highly subjective. Some people like slavery, others don't.

Significance is highly subjective. Some people like slavery, others don't. — Olivier5

Russia has about 1 million slaves according to the definition of Modern Slavery, Ukraine has about 0.2 million. Per capita, one is about as likely to be slave in Ukraine than in Russia.

But don't let actual facts get in the way of your budding fiction writing career.

Now, obviously they don't discuss any of this without passing it by you and ssu first, that goes without saying, and we're ever so grateful that you've decided to tell us here on this obscure philosophy forum before, say, briefing cabinet, or the UN, but once you've made your secret intel public, is it too much to ask that us mere mortals can have an opinion about it? — Isaac

Unlike you, we do look up what is happening in our countries and what is talked about. It's a common misconception to think that others are as ignorant as you are and are just follow what is on the mainstream evening news and nothing else. Me and @Christoffer started immediately discussing the possibility of our countries joining NATO when the war started. Not because of any "inside information", but because it was simply obvious. If you had followed anything about security policy in both countries. Global media just picked it up far later.

Unlike you, this does effect me. You are just engaging in your spare time on a Philosophy Forum. I notice these developments even in my work, so perhaps I've got an incentive to follow the news and stay informed.

Yeah, NATO is "not likely to have planned" for the literal reason for their entire existence. Uh huh. At least make the things you pull out of the sky semi-fathomable. — Streetlight

Stick to issues you know. Your best field of knowledge maybe isn't military doctrine or nuclear weapons.

And it really was hype from the US, whether or not Russia attacked or not. They could not have been more excited. They are even more so now. — Streetlight

Yet Russia did attack. It started a large conventional war of the kind we haven't seen in Europe since WW2. I was an optimist and hoped that Putin wouldn't attack (as invading such a large country with such a force was crazy), but then he made quite clear in his speeches what he intended to do. It really wasn't about Minsk protocols or NATO enlargement. That should be obvious when the leader starts to talk about denazification.

You couldn't recognize a fact if it bit your ass, and you can't read.

Learn some English, maybe?

It's a common misconception to think that others are as ignorant as you are and just follow what is on the mainstream evening news. — ssu

Then why do you keep making it? Your argument is so obviously circular it's a joke. You think A, I think B you assume I don't have the data to inform my conclusion on no other grounds than that I disagree with you. Neither you, nor @Christoffer have yet been able to answer my very simple question -

What source of information about the global sense and consequences of Finland's and Sweden's decision to join NATO is only available to Swedes and Finns?

it was simply obvious. If you had followed anything about security policy in both countries. — ssu

What was obvious? That they would want to? No one is disputing that. That it's a good idea? Well, many analysts still think it isn't, so I can't be that obvious can it?

Again, you're stuck in this crazy echo chamber where every opinion that disagrees with yours must be somehow uninformed, as if the world suddenly became crystal clear overnight - no grey, no nuance, no complexity giving rise to a range of well-informed, but different opinions. Just two mutually exclusive categories {what ssu believes} and {lies}.

Stick to issues you know. — ssu

I know very well when you fabricate completely incredulous trash out of nowhere. I've seen it so much I'm practically an expert. Like: the West is very tired of war; or, NATO has not really given all that much thought to nuclear weapons deployment in Europe.

It really wasn't about Minsk protocols or NATO enlargement. That should be obvious when the leader starts to talk about denazification. — ssu

Yeah yeah, NATO are innocent little babes and Putin is just a video game baddie. Oh and Ukraine is not chock full of Nazis inspiring murderers in the US who wear the same insignias that Zelensky's pal soldiers like to parade around in. The same Nazis you like to run PR for on behest of the American state department.

It really wasn't about Minsk protocols or NATO enlargement. That should be obvious when the leader starts to talk about denazification. — ssu

Uh huh, obvious from Putin's speech it wasn't about NATO...

the eastward expansion of NATO

the leading NATO countries

security in Europe

the North Atlantic alliance continued to expand

a bloody military operation was waged against Belgrade

No Nazis yet...

The bombing of peaceful cities and vital infrastructure

Then came the turn of Iraq, Libya and Syria. The illegal use of military power against Libya and the distortion of all the UN Security Council decisions on Libya

10th paragraph, still no Nazis...Quite a lot about NATO though...

The combat operations conducted by the Western coalition in that country without the Syrian government’s approval or UN Security Council’s sanction can only be defined as aggression and intervention.

the invasion of Iraq without any legal grounds

in many regions of the world where the United States brought its law and order, this created bloody, non-healing wounds and the curse of international terrorism and extremism.

Just lies and hypocrisy all around.

the whole so-called Western bloc formed by the United States in its own image and likeness is, in its entirety, the very same “empire of lies.”

they sought to destroy our traditional values and force on us their false values that would erode us, our people from within

He just can't stop with the Nazi routine can he? Who does he think he's kidding?

in December 2021, we made yet another attempt to reach agreement with the United States and its allies on the principles of European security and NATO’s non-expansion. Our efforts were in vain.

Those who aspire to global dominance have publicly designated Russia as their enemy.

Even now, with NATO’s eastward expansion the situation for Russia has been becoming worse and more dangerous by the year.

Any further expansion of the North Atlantic alliance’s infrastructure or the ongoing efforts to gain a military foothold of the Ukrainian territory are unacceptable for us.

the question is not about NATO itself. It merely serves as a tool of US foreign policy.

It's sooo obvious this isn't about Nato...He's barely mentioned them in amongst all that talk about Nazis...

For the United States and its allies, it is a policy of containing Russia, with obvious geopolitical dividends. For our country, it is a matter of life and death

the forces that staged the coup in Ukraine in 2014 have seized power, are keeping it with the help of ornamental election procedures and have abandoned the path of a peaceful conflict settlement.

...

Focused on their own goals, the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine

Finally. Told you it was all about the Nazis! What a douche! You'd think he'd have at least bothered to come up with some other reasons...

Russia: If NATO keeps moving East we will probably use violence

NATO: moves East.

Russia: Uses violence.

NATO apologists: Oh no the only solution to this is to expand NATO more. Crazy how Putin blames Nazis.

Even though, as it so happens, Ukraine is in fact crawling with fucking Nazis, now armed with American weapons, downplayed by Nazi apologists like ssu.

And thus Putin's narrative (propaganda-style) has been adopted and propagated. :up: :grin: Worked.

And same stupid arguments are given on page 245 as in the early 10's and 20's.

Somehow not interested to reply to such bullshit.

Russia: We like Ukrainians. Let's not bother them.

Putin: Let's invade.

*Putin shows how inept the Russian military actually is.*

NATO: moves East.

Meanwhile, in a popular Russian talk show, retired Russian Col. Mikhail Khodaryonok gives his grim assessment of Russia's war in Ukraine:

This Putin propaganda?



Or did this extensive Western media coverage of Nazis in Ukraine retroactively become Putin propaganda only as it became expedient to American interests, which you parrot?

:up:

Some of Ukraine's success repelling Russian forces is apparently due to some training sessions with UK military personnel. Efforts that came about after Russia assimilated Crimea.

Doesn't Russian law prohibit sending conscripts into war outside Russia? (If captured, they'll hopefully not be sent back in Putin's arms, whether having the law on their side or not.)

Putin's Russia, the invader, failed to swiftly take over Kyiv and capture Ukrainian leaders, succeeded somewhat with nuclear intimidation, succeeded in ruining parts of Ukraine (destroying, looting, killing), prompted Sweden/Finland to seek NATO membership (the rest of the north are founding members), succeeded in suppressing/removing other voices at home (for some time), succeeded in propagating particular narratives (propaganda-style), failed to respond timely to concessions thus making diplomacy increasingly harder when allowing bloodshed and ruinage, may have triggered making haters out of many Ukrainians (including Russian-speaking), ... Some successes some failures, with Ukrainians on the ground being shelled?

Also I stand with Somalia against the US special military operation although probably those here who like to run cover for Nazis don't have much to say about the US invasion of a nation of black people:

Meanwhile, in a popular Russian talk show, Mikhail Khodaryonok gives his grim assessment of Russia's war in Ukraine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AacHvH2Z-mQ — neomac

Although that Ukraine would field 1 million men is unlikely, it can and will use the pool of reservists and the National Guard to replace it's losses. Now Russia would basically have millions of reservists, but the fact is that is has no way to train and mobilize them and huge difficulties to arm them. Above all, the move would be as toxic as the US reinstating the draft.

Yet the example of Mikhail Khodaryonok shows very well just how perilous situation Putin has put Russia now. I don't know if the TV program was cut at that point (perhaps it was!), but he surely was telling the truth.

Marteen Wolterink, from the Netherlands
Source: Cartooning for Peace

And same stupid arguments are given on page 245 as in the early 10's and 20's. — ssu

Yes, but no one's forcing you to keep posting them.



I was wondering if any of the great humanitarians here could direct me to the UK's 'Homes for Somalis' scheme. They set up the excellent, and not at all useless, Homes for Ukraine scheme, almost immediately as war broke out, so I assume a similar scheme for Somalis has been up and running for years, but I seem to be having trouble finding it.

Ah! Is this it...?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/20/100m-uk-aid-budget-returning-north-african-refugees

...oh no, that must be a different scheme...

Maybe this one...

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/jun/22/betrayed-somali-refugees-kenya-dadaab-camp-sent-from-safety-into-war-zone

...no, that's the UN's excellent scheme to kill repatriate them.

They really need to improve their advertising for it, because at the moment it almost looks as if no one gives a shit because they're black.

One of the last things Trump did.

(Dec 5th, 2021 Reuters) President Donald Trump has ordered nearly all American troops to withdraw from Somalia, U.S. officials said on Friday, part of a global pullback by the Republican president before he leaves office next month that will also see him drawdown forces in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The United States has about 700 troops in Somalia focused on helping local forces defeat the al Qaeda-linked al Shabaab insurgency. The mission has received little attention in the United States, but has been considered a cornerstone of the Pentagon’s global efforts to combat al Qaeda.

War on Terror continues... sigh.

They really need to improve their advertising for it, because at the moment it almost looks as if no one gives a shit because they're black. — Isaac

Well the US state department has not released a statement condemning the war in Somalia, so our friends here don't have any script to follow. It's not their fault.

https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1184575/europe-accused-of-double-standard-on-ukrainian-refugees/

That said the Europeans it's true absolutely fucking loathe anyone who is not lily-white so they will welcome their Ukranian refugees with open arms while letting those horrible Africans bloat at sea.

Wow cool you can quote a year old article maybe narrow your Google searches to the last 24 hours and you can offer me some amateur analysis about more things you know nothing about while adorning it with useless infographics that no one pays attention to.

And thus Putin's narrative (propaganda-style) has been adopted and propagated. :up: :grin: Worked. — jorndoe

And same stupid arguments are given on page 245 as in the early 10's and 20's.

Somehow not interested to reply to such bullshit. — ssu

There's a lot of Russian propaganda around -- but listening to the reasons given has to be done, no matter how absurd one thinks they are. Sometimes there's a kernel of truth in it, other times a surprising amount of truth.

It's far harder to make the attempt to understand than it is to cheer for the home team. I don't think Russia is in the right here -- they're not, and military aggression like this is unacceptable. That's fairly obvious. But if we care about Ukrainians, we have to do more than cheer. We can see if and how we've contributed to this situation and make moves in the direction of peace. Can anyone argue that the United States' actions over the last 30 years have encouraged peace? I don't think so, any more than one could argue it for the middle east.

I don't see anyone on here claiming Putin is a good guy or is in the right.

I don't see anyone on here claiming Putin is a good guy or is in the right. — Xtrix

Give them some time.

We can see if and how we've contributed to this situation and make moves in the direction of peace. — Xtrix

I don't think anything was going to deter Putin from invading Ukraine except its membership in NATO. He thought he could just waltz in and take over the country. The takeaway here is that if Ukraine was in NATO, there would be peace right now. Finland and Sweden have certainly drawn that conclusion. I don't blame them.