Do you additionally support the right of Ukrainians to vote? If yes, you will agree with me and many others that the freely elected and hence legitimate government of Ukraine has the right and the duty to defend the lives and well being of the country's population, and to decide which peace they want — Olivier5
This is the best example of diversion with random anti-NATO and filo-Russian propaganda which bears no relation whatsoever to what I was disputing wrt Crimean Tatar issue. — neomac
Anthropologically, about 80% of the Volga Tatars belong today to Caucasoids and 20% to Mongoloids (Khalikov 1978).
Some Islamic states, such as the Ottoman Empire, the Crimean Khanate, and the Sokoto caliphate, must be termed slave societies because slaves there were very important numerically as well as a focus of the polities’ energies.
More long-term was the slavery practiced in the Crimean Khanate between roughly 1475 and its liquidation by the Russian empress Catherine the Great in 1783. The Crimean Tatar society was based on raiding the neighbouring Slavic and Caucasian sedentary societies and selling the captives into the slave markets of Eurasia.
Approximately 75 percent of the Crimean population consisted of slaves or freedmen, and much of the free population was highly predatory, engaged either in the gathering of slaves or in the selling of them. It is known that for every slave the Crimeans sold in the market, they killed outright several other people during their raids, and a couple more died on the way to the slave market.
What is really easy, down right facile, is to be dismissive and contemptuous of people defending their country. — Olivier5
In any case, it should be obvious that the longer the war drags on with US assistance, the more people will die on both sides. — Apollodorus
You are commenting on the ethics of war, now? — Olivier5
Where have I disparaged diplomatic efforts, ever? — Olivier5
From the political history of my country, I can really see that this isn't the case. Russia is a genuinely different actor than let's say the UK, France, the US or even China.Your singling out of Russian foreign policy as being "all about control and influence" was simply wrong. It's no more so than most other powerful countries. The difference between NATO and the Warsaw Pact has nothing to do with it. — Isaac
But this doesn't make sense. Russia is attacking in Ukraine, in the Donbas, right now.1. Ukraine does the minimum required to ensure a future they can tolerate.
2. Ukraine inflicts the maximum damage on their antagonists.
Ukraine will do whatever they choose, we can support (and encourage) either depending, obviously, on what we think best.
Supporting (1) would be to maximise diplomatic efforts, maximise non-military solutions, stop fighting at the smallest opportunity from where diplomacy might be ale to take over. — Isaac
What on Earth is for Ukraine to "stop fighting at the smallest opportunity" when the other side is attacking you? — ssu
The only way for Ukraine to get a peace agreement with Russia is when Russia cannot gain it's objectives through military force and it is worse for Russia to continue the war than to have a peace agreement. — ssu
Ukraine has to at least accept that it has lost Crimea, which will be a huge letdown for the Ukrainian people — ssu
At least you should have some stalemate where Russian's can see they aren't making progress with continuing the attack.
The only way for Ukraine to get a peace agreement with Russia is when Russia cannot gain it's objectives through military force and it is worse for Russia to continue the war than to have a peace agreement. — ssu
Who said anything about disparaging diplomatic efforts? — Isaac
demonising those who advocate diplomacy. — Isaac
Wrong. Methods do matter. In fact, it's all about those methods.You're still talking about methods when the comment was about objectives. Russia clearly has no greater an objective of "control and influence" than America. — Isaac
Wrong again. Crimea isn't independent. Russia sees Crimea as part of itself. Get the facts straight, Isaac!Concede the independence of Dombas and Crimea, and the independence from NATO. Then deal with their independent governance via diplomatic means. It's not complicated. — Isaac
I think Putin has made those objectives quite clear. Not only the Donbas, but the demilitarization of Ukraine and of course the denazification. Or you disagree?The bizarre, near maniacal, certainty you have about Russia's 'objectives', is not shared by...well, anyone rational. The rest of us take a more circumspect approach to what it is that they might concede to in negotiations. — Isaac
1) Russia has had losses. It has had to limit it's objectives.This incoherent double standard again. Is Russia losing really badly or not? Make up you mind. — Isaac
What we do here is called a conversation, not a war. — Olivier5
Nobody here has ever demonised any diplomacy advocate. — Olivier5
...the Putinistas — Olivier5
Wrong. Methods do matter. In fact, it's all about those methods. — ssu
Wrong again. Crimea isn't independent. — ssu
Just admit that hey, you are open to give everything this away right now, immediately. That works wonders for morale for the Ukrainians now defending the Russian attack, I guess. — ssu
then what? Wait for the next time that Russia invades after it has restocked in equipment and trained new batch of soldiers. Come to finish you let's say in 2030? — ssu
I think Putin has made those objectives quite clear. Not only the Donbas, but the demilitarization of Ukraine and of course the denazification. Or you disagree? — ssu
Zelensky has already made the proposal of going back to the pre 24th February limits, which means that Russia gets Crimea and the part of Donbas they already had.So? The future of Western Europe is decided by what's best for the morale of the Ukrainian army? Why? — Isaac
Myself, Boethius, benkei, streetlight among others have advocated diplomacy. You've demonised all. Accusations of working for the FSB, supporting terrorism, condoning rape etc. — Isaac
Zelensky has already made the proposal of going back to the pre 24th February limits, which means that Russia gets Crimea and the part of Donbas they already had. — ssu
it's the Ukrainians who already have made concessions here. Have they have to give more to an imperialist aggressor here or what? — ssu
There's nothing wrong with Marxism as a system and Russian communism was the Lenin/Stalin corruption of it. — Christoffer
That's what wars do, indeed. What else is new? — Olivier5
Another side is that Russians are defending what they believe to be their country. — Apollodorus
IMO it seems unphilosophical to take a one-sided view of the conflict. — Apollodorus
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