I've also argued that there's no such thing as the will of the Ukrainians, or the motive of the Ukrainians. I've argued that no such thing exists because Ukraine (like all other countries) is an arbitrary line drawn by powerful people based on the amount of resources they had the power to control at the time. — Isaac
The topic was the motives and objectives of 'Ukraine'. Since 'Ukraine' is an arbitrary line drawn on a map, it doesn't have any unified motive, nor objective and if one were to take an aggregate (vote, poll, whatever) the outcome would be different depending on where you put the line without any hint of a natural break.
As such appeal to such a notion morally is absurd. — Isaac
The comments you cite say that there is no such thing as a Ukrainian identity, history, language and culture. I've also argued that there's no such thing as the will of the Ukrainians, or the motive of the Ukrainians. I've argued that no such thing exists because Ukraine (like all other countries) is an arbitrary line drawn by powerful people based on the amount of resources they had the power to control at the time. It does not in any way 'capture' some natural grouping of people all of whom think alike. It would be no more real then me taking a quick glance at the posts on religion here and announcing that "the belief of TPF is that there is a God".
None of this prevents groups of people from ephemerally having common goals. what it does is remove any moral weight behind that commonality. — Isaac
Of course, appeal to such a notion pragmatically is very useful (democracy is a pragmatic appeal to the aggregated will of an arbitrary group of people), but that's not what's going on here. Not only does Ukraine not currently have a functioning democracy (a pragmatic problem), but the results of any such democratic process don't carry great moral weight. My country democratically voted for Brexit. They were wrong to. It's wrongness is not somehow superseded by its being the 'will of the people'.
It is wrong to risk the lives of innocents over a border dispute. It being 'the will of the Ukrainians' doesn't make it less wrong. — Isaac
Large groups of people can agree on a course of action and still be morally wrong about it. — Isaac
My moral claims are arbitrary. My preferences arbitrary. — “Isaac
Yes, Isaac, there can be civil wars. — ssu
You have peace when countries accept the present drawn borders. — ssu
you arguing that Ingushetia is a part of Checnnya and Chechnya has somehow broken away from Russia? — ssu
In other words: "the willingness to fight a common enemy is merely an illusion." Fighting people who kill your friends and neighbors may look and feel like a shared purpose but in reality, it is merely the struggle by elites to control people and territory. — Paine
a self-evident mechanism for how the coercion is brought to bear. Is there some kind of fear of anarchy as depicted by Hobbes? Repression of instincts ala Freud? Or more like the class struggle discussed by Marx? It certainly rules out a view of 'natural' society put forward by Locke. — Paine
...is patently false. — Isaac
But I guess since you need to fire in every direction that's even remotely criticizing your viewpoints, you will fall to the level of criticizing semantics when there's nothing else. Big yawn — Christoffer
about countries fighting wars. Obviously there are other kinds of wars too, but see above. As I said, there can be civil wars. And insurgencies and terrorism acted by groups and individuals etc.The question was — Isaac
:up: :100:The moral claim that “It is wrong to risk the lives of innocents over a border dispute” is not enough compelling because it could be also wrong to risk lives and freedoms of innocents by surrendering to the demands of a genocidal regime. — neomac
It seems odd then that you would want to say the notion lacked any mechanism. It seems even a cursory glance at any sociology or psychology textbook would provide you with a dozen such mechanisms without having to lift a finger. — Isaac
I've also argued that there's no such thing as the will of the Ukrainians, or the motive of the Ukrainians. I've argued that no such thing exists because Ukraine (like all other countries) is an arbitrary line drawn by powerful people based on the amount of resources they had the power to control at the time. It does not in any way 'capture' some natural grouping of people all of whom think alike. — Isaac
I was trying to figure out how your view of society worked. You declare the self-identification of persons as participants in a group to be meaningless in regard to the polity they find themselves within: — Paine
Especially when moving borders is quite rare these days in conflicts... especially the ones the US does. Last time the US made annexations like Russia was I think in the Spanish-American war. Hence Russia war and annexations are quite rare in the World of today.Good, so we're agreed then that keeping borders where they are is neither a guarantor of peace, nor necessary to ensure it. — Isaac
moving borders is quite rare these days in conflicts — ssu
If one rejects any kind of "thinking alike" in forming polities — Paine
The aggregated views of {all the people who live within that border} has no meaning. It's just a random means of stratification unrelated to the opinion being aggregated. As such, all this talk of Ukrainian agency and Ukrainian objectives is nothing but propaganda. There's no moral weight at all to the happenstance aggregate opinion of all the people who happen to be encompassed by an arbitrary spatial line. — Isaac
To illustrate. If we did want to use the opinion of the people affected to influence our decision... Why aren't we asking those on the Russian side of the border? They'll definitely be affected.... Why are we asking people on the Western border of Ukraine (hundreds of miles away) but not just over that border... Why are we asking the rich Ukrainian businessmann (who arguably has the resources to weather most storms), but not the Yemeni child who might not live in Ukraine but will undoubtedly be more affected? — Isaac
It's not that there's no polities. One could create any such grouping - {all dog owners} - for example. It's... — Isaac
The aggregated views of {all the people who live within that border} has no meaning. — Isaac
2022, June 14 — Hans Island is split between Canada and the Danish territory of Greenland. — Isaac
2016, November 28 — Belgium and the Netherlands swap land near Lanaye and Oost-Maarland over the discovery of a headless body several years prior, which the Belgian authorities could not access without crossing Dutch territory. The border has been straightened out and now runs down the centre of the Meuse River.[6] The change took effect on 1 January 2018. — Isaac
To illustrate — Isaac
talk of Ukrainian agency and Ukrainian objectives is nothing but propaganda — Isaac
But Shmyhal also said something interesting, pointing out that Ukrainian air defense forces had shot down 60 of the 76 missiles fired at the country—a figure that has revealed a big change in the war. Whether it be with German-supplied Flakpanzer Gepards or with man-portable air-defense systems (MANPADS), Ukraine has gotten very good at thwarting Russia's air campaign. Back in October of 2022 Russia's military strategists switched tactics and began targeting Ukraine's critical infrastructure as a way to weaken morale and collapse the country's will to fight. Russia's escalation initially worked well. One attack on Oct 10th involved 80 missiles and 24+ Iranian Shahed kamikaze drones which killed 19 Ukrainians and wounded 100+ more according to the Atlantic Council.They have set a goal to leave Ukrainians without light, water, and heat — Denys Shmyhal (Ukraine Prime Minister · Dec 16, 2022)
Today Ukraine's energy grid remains fragile but it is still operating and still providing power to citizens because of the Ukrainian Armed Forces' ability to shoot down Russian missiles. Part of the reason why Ukraine has become so successful at shooting down Russian missiles is because of the equipment it has received from its Western allies. In early November, according to CBS News, Ukraine acquired its first shipments of National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems as well as its first Aspide Air Defense Systems.nearly half of Ukraine's energy grid has been knocked out by recent Russian missile strikes — James McKinley (New York Times journalist · Nov 18, 2022)
But it isn't just expensive equipment that has made a difference. Igla-S MANPADS have proven to be very adept at intercepting incoming Russian missiles. During the Dec 29th attack, a MANPAD was filmed shooting down a low-flying Kh-101 cruise missile according to Tanmay Kadam of the Eurasian Times.The NASAMS systems had a 100 percent success rate in intercepting Russian missiles as the Kremlin continues its ruthless bombardment of Ukraine — Lloyd Austin (US Defense Secretary · Nov 16, 2022)
This wasn't the first time a cruise missile had been shot down by a Ukrainian soldier armed with a MANPAD. In October, Dmytro Shumskyi was credited with downing two Russian missiles in Chernihiv with an FIM-92 Stinger.The missile was detected visually by a group of Ukrainian air defense personnel deployed in the zone of the flight of the missile, following which one of them fired on the missile from Igla MANPADS — Tanmay Kadam (Eurasian Times · Dec 29, 2022)
How is this taken in the Kremlin? Should a change in their tactics be expected? — jorndoe
In the past crimes against civilians were denied at all levels, however implausibly. Now, while the Russian MoD hypocritically claims that the strikes are aimed against "military control centers and energy infrastructure linked to them," state media and lower-level officials are openly acknowledging and even praising the destruction of critical civilian infrastructure. — SophistiCat
The word 'polity' does not mean a grouping by means of a shared property. — Paine
This atomizes the participation of each individual in their location to the point that they are not in a place. It is like a theater filled with a hundred Descartes who have nothing to do with the other Descartes sitting next to them. — Paine
nothing you have presented demonstrates that people actually live like that. — Paine
I'm wondering, is there an (implicit) argument against democracy ("majority dictatorship") here somewhere? — jorndoe
Russian forces’ widespread and repeated targeting of Ukraine’s energy infrastructure appears primarily designed to instill terror among the population in violation of the laws of war, Human Rights Watch said today. Numerous missile and drone attacks in October and November have deprived millions of civilians of at least temporary access to electricity, water, heat, and related vital services ahead of the cold winter months. — HRW
Russian politicians, lawmakers, and other commentators on Russian state media widely applauded the prospect of Ukrainian civilians being left without heat and water in winter. One member of parliament stated that ordinary people should “rot and freeze”, another said the strikes were necessary to destroy the Ukrainian state’s capacity to survive. — HRW
Reacting to the news that Russian attacks on energy facilities in Ukraine over recent days have led to a nationwide blackout in the country, Marie Struthers, Amnesty International’s Director for Eastern Europe and Central Asia, said:
“The strategy behind Russia’s latest warfare tactics is unmistakable. In bombing Ukraine’s critical civilian infrastructure, including energy facilities, the Russian army clearly intends to undermine industrial production, disrupt transportation, sow fear and despair and deprive civilians in Ukraine of heat, electricity and water as the cold grip of winter approaches.”
“Russia’s targeting of Ukrainian civilian infrastructure is unlawful. The morale of the civilian population is not a lawful target, and carrying out these attacks with the sole purpose of terrorizing civilians is a war crime. All those responsible for ordering and committing these criminal attacks must be held to account. With Russia ramping up its efforts to terrorize civilians in Ukraine, the international community must urgently respond and condemn these heinous attacks.” — Amnesty International
In this position paper, the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) analyses why the Russian attacks against Ukrainian energy infrastructure violate international humanitarian law and could be qualified as war crimes. — FIDH
Russia's attacks on Ukraine's civilian infrastructure, including energy facilities, have been described as possible war crimes by the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and Amnesty International. — Reuters
"Demoralising people, terrorising people, is not considered to be an acceptable military advantage," Dr Varaki explains. In fact, she says, the opposite is true: "Terrorising the civilian population is considered to be a war crime."
As well as Russia's insistence that it is targeting only military objects, the Kremlin has hinted that there is another reason for the strikes - persuading Kyiv to talk.
"The unwillingness of the Ukrainian side to settle the problem, to start negotiations, its refusal to seek common ground - this is their consequence," said Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov. — BBC
I have no idea what this means, — Isaac
Nor does it need to. I'm making a moral argument. Moral arguments are about the way things ought to be, not about the way things are. — Isaac
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.