Oh that doesn't matter...according to some here. As I've said the legitimate reasons to use military force is when you are attacked. That you attack some other country for hypothetical, possible attacks isn't legitimate. And when the neighbor has no intention to attack, no ability to pose a threat to you, then whose cause the war is should be obvious.But even this assumption is dangerous because stopping NATO expansion is not a justification for a military takeover of another country. — schopenhauer1
Right? But this is just reiterating m point. Losing a trade partner should not be a legitimate reason to then takeover that country. — schopenhauer1
Correct. And that's because the movement is anti-Russian. — Apollodorus
Oh that doesn't matter...according to some here. As I've said the legitimate reasons to use military force is when you are attacked. That you attack some other country for hypothetical, possible attacks isn't legitimate. And when the neighbor has no intention to attack, no ability to pose a threat to you, then whose cause the war is should be obvious. — ssu
I've never said it was ... nor is anyone. Putin's stated reason is "de-Nazification". — boethius
What I'm pointing out is that, in a political realist point of view, the EU removing itself as a good faith trading partner of Russia and instead just parroting US talking points that "Putin be bad boy", removes the downside to attacking Ukraine.
Resulting in only upsides and no downsides.
Any rational strategist will do a move that has minimal downsides and plenty of upsides without hesitation.
Western media is saying this is miscalculation because they don't like Putin "even more" now ... but were they doing him any favours before? — boethius
Yes, stated reason...along with a rambling manifesto about how Ukraine was once part of the Soviet Union and isn't stupid how that was lost when the USSR disbanded. — schopenhauer1
I just don't get your position here.. I guess my question to you is do you agree with Putin's use of force to takeover a country? — schopenhauer1
I'm presenting the counter argument to the Western media narrative, understand the counter-party perspective, which is the basis of negotiation; which I think is preferable to more bloodshed. — boethius
As I said, war seems entirely justifiable if the neo-Nazi element is above some critical threshold. It is definitely, from my point of view, uncomfortable amount of neo-Nazi elements to easily argue against his justification. So, that doesn't make me happy, nor the EU doing absolutely nothing about it.
Considering the West had 8 years to do something about neo-Nazi's in Ukraine, I think the burden of proof is on those Western actors to demonstrate how they are fringe or marginal in Ukraine's de facto governing processes.
For example, the neo-Nazi association with Trump I would agree is totally fringe thing and not a justification to assassinate Trump, and the whole "Trump is a neo-nazi or supporting neo-Nazi's" I viewed as irresponsible and propaganda (although, I certainly didn't nor do support Trump; just, Republican's aren't significantly composed of neo-Nazis). — boethius
However, there does legitimately seem a lot more in Ukraine.
And, therefore, not invading can be argued to be the appeasement. — boethius
And where then do you yourself draw the line where countries "pose a threat" to Russia and are the ones where Russia is justified to use military force — ssu
Above all, Russia has already demanded NATO forces to withdraw from all Eastern member countries and that the US and Western members cannot hold any exercises in Poland, Romania, the Baltic States etc. That is their demand. So that's were the appeasement policy and "understanding Russia's legitimate security needs" will go in the end.
Perhaps you just should demolish NATO, because Russia feels threatened about it. — ssu
ran for president with massive media backing, and was elected president .... :grin: — Apollodorus
That you attack some other country for hypothetical, possible attacks isn't legitimate. And when the neighbor has no intention to attack, no ability to pose a threat to you, then whose cause the war is should be obvious. — ssu
Now, possible, war would have happened anyways, but with some actual track record of opposing these neo-Nazi's, this entire conversation wouldn't be happening and the EU could credibly say there are other policies available to reduce neo-Nazi influence and full scale invasion is unwarranted. — boethius
Was that democracy? I do not have the information to say one way or another. Was it a coup? Can anyone explain his statements lately, attacking NATO (verbally, of course) for not doing more. Why was he having unrealistic explanations? — FreeEmotion
Indeed, we are seeing the consolidation of authoritarianism and the retreat and retrenchment of "Western values" ... not some sort of pyrrhic victory for those values.
For example, what did the West do for the rest of the world, in particularly economically, during the pandemic? Basically nada, and it's a fools errand to expect loyalty and honour in return for none. — boethius
As I said, war seems entirely justifiable if the neo-Nazi element is above some critical threshold. It is definitely, from my point of view, uncomfortable amount of neo-Nazi elements to easily argue against his justification. So, that doesn't make me happy, nor the EU doing absolutely nothing about it. — boethius
“Imagine that Ukraine becomes a NATO member and launches those military operations.” — One World News
God be with the people of Ukraine and Russia. — FreeEmotion
America prays for God to destroy our enemies. Our enemies pray for God to destroy us. Somebody is going to be disappointed. Somebody is wasting their fucking time. Could it be everyone? — Carlin (2008)
Great visuals — FreeEmotion
I think that the rules when you can get in are NATO written in the articles of NATO and evident from the application process. If NATO doesn't want a small country inside, then what kind of a threat is that country to Russia? But this is not solely about "security". It's about being a "Great Power".The problem is if NATO doesn't let you in the club, maybe take that into consideration in dealing with your largest neighbor that can flatten your cities. — boethius
Vladimir Putin, however, has explicitly stated that he views Ukraine as part of Russia. He was determined to reclaim this allegedly lost Russian territory regardless of whether, say, Poland joined NATO. NATO expansion was always a convenient pretext, but never the reason, for Russia’s invasions of Ukraine.
Things change, if you can argue the other side broke the agreement (didn't deliver the product) then you can justify not following the agreement too (not paying for what wasn't delivered); of course, one's arguments need to be credible. — boethius
“There are no bad intentions towards our neighbors. And I would also advise them not to escalate the situation, not to introduce any restrictions. We fulfill all our obligations and will continue to fulfill them,” Putin said in televised remarks, according to Reuters.
“We do not see any need here to aggravate or worsen our relations. And all our actions, if they arise, they always arise exclusively in response to some unfriendly actions, actions against the Russian Federation,” he added.
Russia is a big country, so why would I want it to be diminished? So no. The Russians are genuinely nice, warm people and have a soul more of an artist than an engineer, those that I have been with. They are Europeans and I genuinely think (call me naive, I don't care) that the Russians could well have a democracy, but they haven't been given a real chance. That's the real tragedy, that people loyal to the former authoritarian regime of the Soviet Union captured and retained power in Russia.Do you want a diminished Russia? If then say so. I do not want any country to be diminished. — FreeEmotion
Ukraine’s Shift Away from Russian Trade Dependence
Since its independence from the former USSR in 1991, Ukraine has steadily shifted towards Western trading partners, especially as conflicts with Russia escalated in the 2010s.
After years of negotiations, Ukraine’s Association Agreement with the EU in 2014 facilitated free trade between EU nations and Ukraine, reducing the country’s dependence on trade with Russia.
Ukraine is one of the most important economic centers of the former Soviet Union, and it had long been the breadbasket of the USSR thanks to its fertile chernozem soil and strong agricultural industry.
Trade value between Russia and Ukraine peaked in 2011 at $49.2 billion, and since then has fallen by 85% to $7.2 billion in 2020. During this time, European nations like Poland and Germany overtook Russia in terms of trade value with Ukraine, and in 2021 trade with the EU totaled to more than $58 billion.
Nuclear weapons are for posturing, not for use. Just look at how scared people are of any kind of nuclear accident: the accident in Fukushima didn't kill anybody, but had huge implications everywhere. Now just think what using a small tactical nuclear warhead (50kt or less) would create. You think that people wouldn't care if in the social media feed or in the television they had headlines like "NUCLEAR WAR!".Curious how you view the nuclear first strike strategy. A possible attack, an ability to pose the threat, and intelligence reports that the other country is having an 'intention to attack' of course no one know intentions, just some missiles placed in Cuba pointing at the American heartland. — FreeEmotion
why keep making evidence-free allegations? — Apollodorus
Compare that to Russia's major trading partners, here from 2020. With the sanctions, it's evident that China will have a huge role in Russia. And that Russia is in trouble. Besides China, major trading partners (that are loyal allies) are only Belarus and Kazakhstan.Ah, I wasn't thinking that trade relationships would or did trump security policy. I posted the chart just to give people like me a clearer idea of the Ukranian economy. — Bitter Crank
This is INSANE wtf, they want a European war with Russia!?!? — Manuel
Investors are betting the threat of a new cold war will trigger an arms race. Britain’s BAE Systems, as well as US aircraft maker Lockheed Martin, weapon manufacturer Northropp Grumman and engines-to-missiles conglomerate Raytheon, hit record share prices in the wake of the invasion.
This is INSANE wtf, they want a European war with Russia!?!? — Manuel
Because occupying Ukraine will drain the living daylights out of the Russian economy. Russia will be weak and will play the second fiddle towards China. You can see here that the Russians living here are in total shock of the events happening in their country. Nothing like that happened in 2014 or during the Russo-Georgian war. This is totally different. — ssu
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