You were on the one hand saying the Ukrainians stood a good chance of victory against the Russian military and on the other saying that the Russian military were so strong no-one would ever present a legitimate threat to them. The same military. So which is it. Are they so strong no-one presents a legitimate threat, or are they so weak the Ukrainians have a good chance of defeating them outright? — Isaac
And you've dodged the question - does Ukraine have a choice? — Isaac
What choice does Ukraine have, Isaac? Roll over and give more territory to Russia?
— ssu
Yes, that is correct. That's the choice they have. Lose more of their young men, armed forces, women and children, or cede territory to the Russians. — Isaac
They contradict themselves constantly — Olivier5
Do you have good reasons to mistrust them? — Olivier5
? What seems like a contradiction to you, does not seem like a contradiction to others. — Isaac
Because defense is much easier than attack. — Olivier5
Whatever happened to the long term? If Ukraine agrees to keeping the present government, staying out of NATO "forever" (who would have thought Putin would request to join NATO?) and peacekeepers to babysit the Neo-Nazis, Ukraine will be a hugely advantageous position: supported by the world, and with Russia under crippling sanctions, rocked by protests. Who could ask for more. Maybe they will — FreeEmotion
Seems like a contradiction to me - but perhaps I simply lack the 'Street Wisdom'. Maybe Olivier5 or @ssu could patiently explain to one so unwise in the ways of the street how sanctions might cripple Russia now, but would miraculously have no effect whatsoever if it intervened in an independent Donetsk and Luhansk with too heavy a hand? — Isaac
Sanctions will cripple Russia whether or not they murder or otherwise brutalize folks in Donbass. — Olivier5
No objective security concern would justify the current bloated US military. It is more a question of how the militaro-industrial complex is phagocytating the US budget. — Olivier5
My sense is that the Ukraininans want to punish the Russian army as hard as they can, so that they will never even dream of attacking Ukraine again. — Olivier5
What I'm not seeing is why anyone outside of Ukraine should be encouraging the pursuit of those objectives at the expense of people's lives. — Isaac
there is an objective need, from EU residents perspective, to scare Putin into a less bellicose posture. — Olivier5
Putin needs to know that he can lose wars, and he needs to know how it feels, to internalize it, to learn his lesson. — Olivier5
as long as Russia controls so much of the gas trade to Central Europe, Germany and even Italy, they have a huge lever that they can use against us. — Olivier5
it is in Europe's long term interest to diversify its gas suppliers. Hence it is vital to European long term, strategic interest that Ukraine takes back Crimea. — Olivier5
Right. But your claim is that sanctions can cripple Russia. So why do we need Ukraine to send it's young men in after them? Sign the peace deal, cripple Russia with sanctions (not to mention arrest Putin for war crimes). Why continue the actual war? — Isaac
Is our schadenfreude at seeing Putin humiliated worth hundreds of Ukrainian lives? — Isaac
Is our schadenfreude at seeing Putin humiliated worth hundreds of Ukrainian lives? — Isaac
The brain-rot it must take. — StreetlightX
To recover territory and scare the Russian army for a long time, as already explained. — Olivier5
It's not you and me fighting there, it's them. And they fight for their own reasons. — Olivier5
Imagine observing the current events and thinking: "we need to aggressively address Putin's feelings. This is very important - the most important - and totally not bad fiction writing for edgy teen novels". The brain-rot it must take. — StreetlightX
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