Some people argue that we shouldn't be accepting our mortality at all. They say that we already have the technology advanced enough to defeat ageing. The only thing that stops us is the widespread idea that ageing and dying is just a part of life. They even go as far as to say that we should announce ageing to be a disease, and we should fund the research to cure it. Unfortunately, there is very little funding to it compared to other diseases.

Curing ageing would not guarantee mortality, but it sounds like a good first step. If you're interested, I recommend the work of David A. Sinclair, particularly his book Lifespan. Here are a few videos on this topic: Why Die?, How to Cure Aging – During Your Lifetime?

As a dead person you finally "comprehend/experience" eternity - you stay dead forever! Death, in some ways, is $\infty$.

Think of it as a ride on a train, but you're sleeping the entire way. Did you, asleep, not travel? Of course you did. Hypnos & Thanatos are twin brothers - the former gives you brief glimpses of what the latter has planned for you for the rest of eternity.

But I cannot avoid my own death and it will come well before I am even close to "done" exploring life. — Yvonne

They say that we already have the technology advanced enough to defeat ageing. — pfirefry

Science is our best hope for extending human lifespan. Praying for it is useless.

My main issue in life is an inability to accept my mortality. — Yvonne

I know this doesn't satisfy many people but I personally am comforted by the old comment that;
'you didn't worry about oblivion before you were born so why worry about it after death?'

If oblivion means, unaware of ANYTHING, including time passing, then there is nothing to worry about. No hell, No hell of heaven, etc.
There is one frame of reference, within which, when you die, the Universe ends.
If you have no existence/substance whatsoever, after death and you don't experience time passing
then for you, the time left to the Universe, passes instantaneously.

There is also the proposition that death means disassembly back to component parts. This definitely happens to the body and I think it happens to the mind as well. I personally don't believe in soul or spirit.

I wish we could quantum tag every quantum that comes from a disassembling human, after death and track each item to find out how much of dead human quanta becomes part of new life, through procreation and the processes of eating/drinking/breathing. Everything is connected to everything else in that sense.
I don't fear death but I do fear the way I die and the amount of suffering I or others go through.
I offer no succor to the antinatalists. I have a very low opinion of that viewpoint.
I enjoy food most when I am hungry. I enjoy activity most when I have been inactive too long. I love good because I know evil exists. I need my suffering, its a good teacher and comparator. I do recognise that for many people, suffering is excessive but that then becomes my responsibility to help alleviate. I want to be part of the solutions not part of the problems.

Death is a harbinger of change and I welcome it as such but I don't presently seek it or rush towards it as the experience of living is filled with so much wonder.
I am not sure I would want to live for too long, I think that could become quite boring. A couple of thousand years, yeah, a million years? meh? not so attracted to that.
I don't want to die too soon, as knowing my luck, something really cool would happen the next day and I would F****** MISS IT!!
Perhaps meeting aliens, or finding a way to extend human life by a couple of hundred years or finding a quick way to terraform nearby planets and therefore be able to start to spread out into the vastness of space or starting to mine asteroids or live in space stations with artificial gravity etc)

If you really think about it, I think you, like almost everyone else is scared of how you will die not death itself because you will have NO AWARENESS AT ALL.
There's an old saying that I first heard in the Cosmos series by Carl Sagan. I think it might be biblical I don't know.

"I lay before you LIFE and the curse, therefore choose life, so thou mayest live, thou and thy seed."

What you are doing here is also the best and only way to deal with this most difficult reality for every human being alive, facing personal death. Talking about it with others who face the same is the way to go.

I have heard some people talk about the end moments of loved ones whose hand they were holding as they passed. Some of those stories are quite beautiful and peaceful.

My main issue in life is an inability to accept my mortality. — Yvonne

Is this because of death's finality? or its inevitability? or your (current) inability to significantly postpone it by artificially extending your lifespan (+ healthspan + brainspan + youthspan) indefinitely?

Do you also have "an inability to accept" every day you wake up that, no matter how long the day before you will feel to you, you cannot avoid the day ending with you involuntarily succumbing to sleep (which overcomes you without any guarantee of you waking again!)? If not, why not? Like death, when we sleep we relinquish all other possible opportunities for choosing and voluntarily acting ...

I cannot avoid my own death and it will come well before I am even close to "done" exploring life. That cannot be right, can it?

Why do you assume you need more than 70-80 years of living in order to be "done exploring life"?

Are these philosophies of finitude's bringing purpose/meaning just platitudes or wishful thinking?

I think such philosophies describe how "finitude brings" the existential urgency compelling individuals as well as communities to choose and behave accordingly from which "purpose/meaning" emerges (i.e. is created). "Finitude", in terms of existing, denotes a limited duration of choosing and acting as well as, I think more significantly, the elimination of alternative choices or actions – opportunities – not chosen or acted upon in any given situation, so that even an 'immortal' person is finite in the latter sense even if not in the former sense.

Isn't terror the natural and most justified human condition?

Yeah, but so what? Isn't pain and boredom also "the natural ... human condition"? Your point escapes me.

Isn't terror the natural and most justified human condition? — Yvonne

For some people yes, but only because they are unconvinced that alternative states are available to them. Some individuals have reported the ability to almost mentally detach themselves during torture.
Think of the operations that the medical profession can perform without causing any pain.
It seems to me that pain can be conquered. I don't claim all suffering can be conquered, achieving that is much more difficult.

Just contemplate upon the fact that the feelings and mental-imagery that you associate with the future or the past, actually correspond to the present. It isn't possible to think beyond the present in a literal sense.

My main issue in life is an inability to accept my mortality. — Yvonne

Welcome to the forum.

First I want to ask how old you are. I'm 70. I've found that the older I get, the less I worry about death. Part of that is because I've pretty much done the things that needed to be done. I grew up, went to school, worked as an engineer, got married, had kids, got older, joined the forum, retired. This is the pretty much the life I had always expected for myself, with some side tracks along the way. Now, here I am. Looking back I'm pretty satisfied with my life. Probably the most important thing is that my children are grown and I know they can take care of themselves without me.

For me, it's a relief that I can put aside hopes, plans, expectations. I think a lot of older people are like that. I'm having a good time. I go to the YMCA to exercise and swim. I kick dumb philosopher ass here on the forum. I read. I go out to lunch. I'm never bored. I'm not ready to die, but the idea doesn't bother me much. I don't think I would want to live forever.

That probably won't help much, but I thought some perspective from the other end of life might help.

That cannot be right, can it? — Yvonne

I would say no, Yvonne. This is right in a certain mannor, but not one you are confined to. Meaning is not something is going to be given to you, by definition. Any more than what food or skill is going be simply given to you. The process is one of goal setting based upon your values. If you have no goals, I would begin assessing your values over an extended period of time.

Are these philosophies of finitude's bringing purpose/meaning just platitudes or wishful thinking? — Yvonne

It depends on which ones you are talking about. Care to elaborate on this particular question?

Isn't terror the natural and most justified human condition? — Yvonne

Yes, but that doesn't mean it is your task to constantly be attemoting to justify it. If you are doing so, a good question to demand the answer out of yourself would be: Why I am doing this more so than I am attempting to justify the limited scope of what I can reasonably enjoy, hope for, value, and seek to accomplish in my life and pursuing those things?

However, just as a quick note, understand that you are not alone in these musings. When I first came into philosophical thought, these kinds of questions plagued me for some time until I realized that I am myself the point and source of all values in my life that could give rise to my own fulfillment, mortality be damned. You might should revisted the death of Socrates, it's inspiring.

My main issue in life is an inability to accept my mortality. — Yvonne

If it's death itself that disturbs you, I think you should consider what it is about death you find disturbing. You already know you will die, and that there is nothing you can do to prevent it. Are you unable to accept other things beyond your control, such as the fact that you will feel pain or will age? What is it about one thing that's beyond your control which you are unable to accept, while you can accept other things beyond your control?

For my part, I think Epictetus was right. It's essential to our happiness that we know the distinction between what is or is not in our control. Death isn't, but how we live, and how we think of death is. We shouldn't let things beyond our control disturb us, whether it's the fact we'll die or something else inevitable, but instead do the best we can with what's in our control and take the rest as it happens.

“

Are these philosophies of finitude's bringing purpose/meaning just platitudes or wishful thinking? Isn't terror the natural and most justified human condition? — Yvonne

No. The "terror" of death is usually caused by either fear of the unknown, or the angst of damnation. It's ironic that we are afraid of ignorance, the abyss of unknowing, even though we inhabited that same mysterious darkness for uncounted eons before we were born. We emerged from the nothingness of dreamless sleep, and are fated to return for an endless nap. Our life is bracketed with the Big Sleep. In our finite world, we have no experience with infinity, but we can imagine it. Yet, when mundane maladies are available, why worry about imaginary evils?

Some religions are happy to give us something to worry about. First, they entice us with the unlikely notion of everlasting Life, then negatively motivate us with the prospect of either everlasting oblivion, or of eternal torture in full awareness. Those who believe what they are told as naive gullible children can be excused for living in terror of Life's dead-end. But those who question such scary campfire stories can rise above irrational fear of death, and perhaps even embrace it as the Big Rest or Long Respite from striving. Just let it be. :cool:

Our revels now are ended :
‘We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep.’
___Shakespeare, The Tempest

Beware: Mainstream psychology has a definitive answer to your question: you're simply depressed. The normal way of being human is not to think about things too deeply, but to just go on with life as if all was well.

:death: :flower:

Our revels now are ended :
‘We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep.’
___Shakespeare, The Tempest — Gnomon

:fire:

For my part, I think Epictetus was right. It's essential to our happiness that we know the distinction between what is or is not in our control. Death isn't, but how we live, and how we think of death is. We shouldn't let things beyond our control disturb us, whether it's the fact we'll die or something else inevitable, but instead do the best we can with what's in our control and take the rest as it happens. — Ciceronianus

:100:

Now, here I am. Looking back I'm pretty satisfied with my life. Probably the most important thing is that my children are grown and I know they can take care of themselves without me.

I'm having a good time. I go to the YMCA to exercise and swim. I kick dumb philosopher ass here on the forum. I read. I go out to lunch. I'm never bored. — T Clark

:cool:

I can accept existential meaninglessness because I can imbue my own meaning. But I cannot avoid my own death and it will come well before I am even close to "done" exploring life. That cannot be right, can it? Are these philosophies of finitude's bringing purpose/meaning just platitudes or wishful thinking? Isn't terror the natural and most justified human condition? — Yvonne

I think that death is indeed unacceptable. I also think the philosophies of finitude are erely balms for the soul. They sooth us to sleep but cannot takethe unacceptabilty of death away. They actually know they cannot.The philosophers of finitude argue against traditional metaphysics that they do have a way of embracing finitude. that is a lie. Providing a diagnosis is something else than providing a cure. The only cure here is a certain kin of 'grace'. The grace 180 Proof and T Clark speak of and maybe Ciceronianus, an acceptance of death because you accept life is done. I very much share your sentiments though.

Those philosophers of finitude do however, point out one thing, they show the ineluctability if that experience and its cencessity as a backdrop for life to be enjoyed. We know that now, so rationally it should be possible to accept death as a part of life. You know Nick Cave has a point.

So we are caught in a bind: our experience fights death, it is a limit experience, or a limit to experience an as such abhorrent, unacceptable, mindless meaningless annihilation. And your knowledge, wisdom or rationality tells you that death is unavoidable and therefore better accepted than fought off, and that mortality is a necessary condition for this thing we do called living.

What to do? Well in such conflicts I think faith comes to the rescue. Not faith in a traditional sense, I am not theistic, but faith in everyday sense, faith you have when biking that you will not fall, faith that your beloved won't just leave you, faith that when you are kind to someone, probably the other will also be kind in return. The language of faith works here. How do we acquire such faith in bucycles, love, and other people? By practicing, learning and watching others do it. Engage in it.

Apparently grace is available. There are peoople who mmanage to lift the fear of death. Study them and learn, watch and emulate. What I have seen is that fear of death seems to fade when people actually feel fulfilled in life. The people least afraid of death are actually happiest with their living. That is an interesting and telling contradiction. It suggest that the way to grace does not lead through dealing with death but to make sure you live happily. So the only way to avoid death is to live...

(And welcome to the forum. Study those who know how to live, they tend to be the best writers on the forum as well).

Thank you all so far for a brilliant chat. So many wise words and interesting ideas. I love the David Sinclair recommendation ... such a different response to my existential dilemma and what an interesting read. I I was much younger it would give me great comfort. But as I am 59 I doubt that I will be getting the benefit of his work so it left me feeling a bit cheated and jealous of younger folk ...

I totally buy into the argument that I am not troubled by the oblivion before I was born so I should not be troubled by death, but it has never comforted me, I don't know why. Likewise the notion of death being similar to sleep. Perhaps it's because I'm someone who tends to live in the future. So there has to be more ahead.

I am not sure I want permanence but I do know at 59 that I do not have sufficient years left to do all the things i want to do and explore all the things i want to explore, philosophically, socially or geographically. But even at 25 or so I was aware that my life would be too short for my liking. Maybe time in that sense is like physical space; I have a thirst to discover every inch of the earth (and the universe beyond it), so perhaps I also want to experience every time. Even though geographical travel is possible but time travel isn't, one takes from the other and each limits the other, which leaves me feeling dissatisfied.

This resonates 100%, and links back to the point about before-birth and after-death oblivion. I also cannot be four years old again or even four minutes ago again. I am stuck in the present. Maybe I shouldn't fear death, then, because I will never be in any moment other than the present, therefore every "present" is infinite? So does that mean that every moment of my life is eternal to me?

I'm not far behind you and the angst is not improving!

I was referring to the Nick Cave quote in my original post... that the finiteness of existence makes us focus, that our own demise is some sort of "poetry".

What you have written here is very comforting to me, I relate to the being controlled issue ... it's a massive one for me.

You are right but i can't figure out from studying those people what the secret ingredient is! As for your comment about fulfillment, I'm not sure. I have spent parts of my life in misery and other parts in ecstasy. Both ends of the spectrum seem to magnify my existential angst. At one extreme, 'I need to live much, much longer because all of this so far has been a bit boring and rubbish, or even painful at times' and at the other extreme 'please don't take this away, this is just a blast, I need it to last hundreds of years' :D

I hope we can continue this chat and thanks again, it's been a brilliant introduction to the forum.

Both ends of the spectrum seem to magnify my existential angst. At one extreme, 'I need to live much, much longer because all of this so far has been a bit boring and rubbish, or even painful at times' and at the other extreme 'please don't take this away, this is just a blast, I need it to last hundreds of years' :D — Yvonne

Yes, but isn't this volatility exactly the tension between knowing and feeling? You jump into the feeling and you want more and more, either because it is boring and rubbish or because it is too much of a great time. Is not the bottom line of these feelings that you experience a need to be alive? Now if that is the bottom line and you are also living, isn't that a sign of grace? ou are actually having what you are demanding, namely life. Why worry so much about the end of it? You know basically that life is worth living. I think that knowledge is someting to hold on to.

Life may actually flash before your eyes on death

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60495730

"New data from a scientific "accident" has suggested that life may actually flash before our eyes as we die."

@Sam26 @Tobias agree?

But I cannot avoid my own death and it will come well before I am even close to "done" exploring life. That cannot be right, can it? Are these philosophies of finitude's bringing purpose/meaning just platitudes or wishful thinking? Isn't terror the natural and most justified human condition? — Yvonne

:fire:

Life always dies, eventually. While continuing one's life may be good, the anxiety associated with losing one's life, is not good. In my view, it is best to let go of one's attachment (grasping / clinging) to one's own life and let whatever happen, happen - and learn to appreciate the moments that you can.

Oh, and don't have kids, spare them all this crap.

Sam26 Tobias agree? — Changeling

Is there something to agree or disagree with?

I suffered as you did until I stopped turning away from God. It is vanity and arrogance (that you can be anything without God) that is your problem. In my opinion. Good luck and God bless.

Why would a belief in any god(s) or any afterlife solve my issue of not wanting to leave this life? Why do you assume that I have 'turned my back' on anyone or anything because I have a thirst to experience all the world has to offer and do not feel ready to leave? Do you think it's acceptable to label me 'vain' and 'arrogant' without even knowing me and without even knowing whether I believe in God or not?

Is there something to agree or disagree with? — Tobias

There is.

There is. — Changeling

I do not see it. They recorded a large amount of brain activity in areas which are also used when dreaming or remembering. What is there to disagree with?

""If I were to jump to the philosophical realm, I would speculate that if the brain did a flashback, it would probably like to remind you of good things, rather than the bad things," he said."

This is pure speculation, nothing to agree with or disagree with either. It could be, could not be. Philosophically speaking there is no saying what you will remember. The mind does not have a 'will' of its own trying to cheer up the ding person. There is no way of saying. However people have reported near death experiences so yeah, near death experiences are corroborated by brain activity. Again nothing that I can agree or disagree with.

you disagree that there is something to agree/disagree with?

If you think there is something to agree or disagree with, then, indeed, I disagree with you... :)

I disagree with you... — Tobias

:cheer: