The Enlightenment included a range of ideas centered on the value of human happiness, the pursuit of knowledge obtained by means of reason and the evidence of the senses, and ideals such as liberty, progress, toleration, fraternity, constitutional government, and separation of church and state. — wikipedia
There, did I make that as clear as the water in a mud hole? — Athena
My two cents on Romanticism as I am pondering it now...
The Enlightenment of the 17-18th centuries sought out to understand the world using what they referred to as "Reason". This idea, borrowed from the Stoics but changed slightly to mean empirical reasoning and not necessarily some "Universal Reason" (though there was some of this too with Deism). It was simply the notion brought about from the New Science being explored by Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Huygens, Descartes, Boyle, et al.
However, the scientific worldview seemed to constantly focus on the empirical and even with that, Political Science was the main focus. The individual human condition was given short-shrift. The 19th century can be seen as a sort of backlash.. Existentialism started the trend of "the individual" and the existential questions of life. What does it mean to be a human consciousness, from the interior perspective, not just the empirical one. These types of human struggles are captured more in art, literature, feelings, personal observations and experiences, etc.. The individual was being more captured by people like Schopenhauer, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, etc.
The individual was being more captured by people like Schopenhauer, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, etc.It was from late 1700s-early 1800s and often turned politics into identity-politics.. Rousseau and his general "General Will", Herder, or Schelling and Fichte's emphasis on ethnic politics helped push movements that divided Europe less on Imperial or Universal lines and more on common cultural and historical ties. It was not universal in the Enlightenment sense of only worrying about the individual's rights and securities, but about cultural identity. Individualistic, but at the level of culture, not the person. That would be more emphasized with the Existentialists. — schopenhauer1
How is that so? — Athena
He was the first to formalize it into a moral code — Garrett Travers
Is empiricism a moral code? — EugeneW
The Enlightenment included a range of ideas centered on the value of human happiness, the pursuit of knowledge obtained by means of reason and the evidence of the senses, and ideals such as liberty, progress, toleration, fraternity, constitutional government, and separation of church and state.
— wikipedia
Are those Romantic values? I don't think so.
There, did I make that as clear as the water in a mud hole?
— Athena
You were very clear, but I don't think the only two choices are Romanticism and technocracy. — T Clark
In Aristotelian texts, the happiness was interpreted in the light of one
of crucial concepts of his philosophical system, completion (enthelechy).
It indicated the motion of every righte-ous thing to its genuine end which
was thought to be identical with the universal order led by Natural (or
Divine) Law. In social life, the completion was combined with the
happiness of communities and human beings reached through high
intellectual and moral virtues and relevant habits. The role of outstanding
legislators and statesmen was appreciated by Aris-totle as key condition
for social progress.
In Cicero’s texts, the concept of happiness was also linked with the
Natural Law: “[...] the ultimate good of man is life in accordance with
Nature”. The author proceeded from the Stoic theory, viewing in the
Universe a republic (consisting of stars, planets, animals, men) led by
Logos. Men are held as the main object of Logos emanation, and it is
present in their soul as the reasonable part. As a result, virtues; spring
from reason, the most divine element in man”. In communal life, the
connection with Logos was brought about by outstanding statesmen, who,
after death, dwelt in “a high place full of stars, shining and
splendid”. They turn into the heavenly patrons of Rome personifying its
basic virtues – virtus, gravitas, dignitas, fides, clementia. Felicitas
(happiness) was assessed as a balance of them. According to Cicero, the
best state form capable to secure the happiness of citizen was the republic
with mixed government system uniting the elements of monarchy,
aristocracy and democracy — Albert Stepanyan and Lilit Minasyan
But what has your knowledge source to do with good and bad? What morals you refer to? How to find knowledge? — EugeneW
Are those Romantic values? I don't think so. — T Clark
He was the first to formalize it into a moral code and sort of traditionalize it, as it were, as opposed to the Platonic and Aristotelian models, which were more focused on forms, and logic. — Garrett Travers
Athena — Athena
Raising children is an important part of growing up. Especially if one wants to be an authority on human nature. Like without family aren't we missing an important human experience? — Athena
The way I see it, all of your behavior is predicated on the knowledge that your brain assimilates through sensory observation. — Garrett Travers
Meaning, your primary means of successfully navigating the world in behavior, is an empirical analysis of reality, as opposed to mysticism, or spirits — Garrett Travers
Also, Epicurus believed that fear was an evil, and our ignorance of nature left us afraid of the Gods — Garrett Travers
. That to dispel that fear, one should empirically investigate nature to uncover its secrets and natural processes. — Garrett Travers
Keep in mind, this guy produced the most peacful societies that I know of in history. He's quite literally the best of the Greeks. — Garrett Travers
If you have faith in the natural ordering of state of affairs, then besides behaving reasonably, having good judgment, and having reasonableness in the way you see the world, you don't have to do anything else because the ordering of the ugly side of liberty will happen. This phenomenon has been observed in the natural world-- when groups have become unsustainable, whether by toxicity, overcrowding, and unrest, they naturally break apart into smaller groups somewhere else.I think I might be one of those people :gasp: so I really have to ponder that difference because I value liberty but hate the ugliness that results from the liberties some people take. I hope others have more to say about this. — Athena
Where did I say I don't agree with it? I'm confused by your whole post. All I said is that Enlightenment values are not Romantic values. — T Clark
All of this, yes! I'd give anything to have these societies back and people behaving like them. You need to see this history, man. Epicurus is the real deal. I regard him as THE single most important, and influential philosopher in history:
http://www.faculty.umb.edu/gary_zabel/Courses/Spinoza/Texts/Epicurean%20History.htm — Garrett Travers
This phenomenon has been observed in the natural world-- when groups have become unsustainable, whether by toxicity, overcrowding, and unrest, they naturally break apart into smaller groups somewhere else. — L'éléphant
Well, you should know my stance on procreation by now, Athena. — schopenhauer1
Science is part of the state of affairs."If you have faith in the natural ordering of state of affairs" My faith is in science, not human stupidy and the religions that maintain it. — Athena
What do you think of society's way of relating with others? You talk about a sort of pseudo-homesteading that you did in Oregon. If we are not talking about a cultish-commune type society, I'm assuming you had to meet a partner (assuming in your case a husband), go through a sort of dating/courting/falling in love process, decide to create new people in the world and raise them a certain way, be able to provide for yourself and family with some sort of job in the broader economic system which allows for things to survive.. EVEN in just these very "typical" circumstances, people can have a hard time in almost every one of those processes.... everything from sustaining a good job, finding a partner, and living some ideal life of perfect harmony where one has a clockwork routine of baking pies and making furniture, while the kids are helping churn the butter, and helping cultivate the garden.. Ya know it's just like the Hobbits or something, right? It all works out, and everyone's needs are met in perfect harmony :roll:. That image indeed is its own romanticism.. It is the pull for Tolkien's world, for fantasy idealism. — schopenhauer1
Science is part of the state of affairs. — L'éléphant
We are always thrown into a "baked-in" social reality. In some circles, this is referred to as "situatedness". — schopenhauer1
That's what the ruling powers tell you. — EugeneW
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