divine inspiration — Edward235

Afflatus (sounds gassy, I feel bloated).

Your line of thought would end at a point that's both intriguing, comforting and, simultaneously, disturbing. The Old Testament describes, in exquisite detail, what blind worship leads to, what absolute power and authority utlimately transforms into (a megalomaniac).

At the end of the Old Testament, is there a line that reads: Don't Do That! referring to what was recorded in it? There should be one I suppose. We could sleep a little better, oui?

What if someone, discreetly enough, scracthed that line out for reasons lost to history? Don't Do That! :smile: :wink:

Maybe, just maybe, the Bible tells us what the men and women of that time were doing was wrong. — Edward235

The wrongs done by men and women of that time and the warnings given by God are constant themes throughout the whole Bible. The subject is never left alone. The result of wrong-doing and the price paid for it by Christ are fundamental to Christianity. You write as if you have just spotted something that nobody else has noticed.

The stories within the Bible show us scenes of gore, rape, slavery, and so many more violent acts, yet Christians sit here and preach that we must do what the Bible tells us word for word. — Edward235

If Christians are telling you to murder, rape and enslave people then go and find another church. They are, as you suggest, not to be believed.

The stories within the Bible show us scenes of gore, rape, slavery, and so many more violent acts, yet Christians sit here and preach that we must do what the Bible tells us word for word. — Edward235

You may need to broaden your understand of how Christianity works in practice. I grew up in the Christian tradition and no one I knew, clergy included, believed the Bible to be literally true. It was generally seen as allegorical. It's something of more recent times that literal truth has been a fixation - hence the term 'fundamentalism' - a sub branch of the tradition which is generally more prominent in America.

The other thing to remember is that many hardcore Christian believers have never read the Bible and have only had a few passages picked out for them by preachers who insist on slanted interpretations.

Even the Bible literalists do not follow the Bible's commands. No one stones people to death for blasphemy or sex before marriage, not even the Southern Baptists. Many believers have a hard time remembering the 10 commandments, let along all the other details.

Rene Girard is the new trendy/intellectual cipher to understanding the motifs of Bible (the meaning of Christ's sacrifice).

Jesus is the Last Sacrifice, a symbol/awareness/reminder to end the widespread unconscious practice of scapegoating, which is an evolutionary trick or double edged sword which formerly stabilized society but is also the source of violent apocalypse/end of times . Good luck on that account. That's as much like telling everyone that Christ's message is that they shall all become vegan and give 10% of their away to the poor and never partake in money lending with interest.

The Bible presented among Christian believers, is a collection of stories written by supposed divine inspiration. The stories within the Bible show us scenes of gore, rape, slavery, and so many more violent acts, yet Christians sit here and preach that we must do what the Bible tells us word for word. — Edward235

Some of it is alleged to have 'divine inspiration'. Some of it is purported to be history. Some of it is liturgy (e.g. Psalms). the Bible is a collection composed by various authors over time, revised, edited, and reworked. Only 23% of the Bible (New Testament) concerns Jesus, the Apostles, Paul, and the early years of Christianity. 77% concerns the Jews and Israel.

Yes, there are numerous stories recounting violence in the Bible. The promised land was secured by violence. "Kill them all." Deuteronomy 20:16-18. Was this a surprising innovation by God, or just standard operating procedure in armed conquest? More the latter, I would think.

Jesus Christ, whom Christians consider the fulfillment of the God's Word, said: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." That is what the Christian is directed to do. Period.

The idea that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, to be taken literally from Genesis to Revelations is a recent innovation in the 2000 year history of the faith. This approach was developed as a reaction to the new insights developed by scholars in the 18th/19th century. Textual criticism and evolution both cast doubt on some biblical truths. In reaction, conservative believers hardened their view of the Bible from "authoritative" to the Bible is inerrant -- literally true, not questionable in any way, shape, manner, or form. In other words, Fundamentalism.

Most 'mainline' Christians (Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic alike) reject Fundamentalism.

Some people have a low tolerance for ambiguity. Multiple meanings which can be revised according to interpretation bother these people a lot, whether it's the Bible or the Constitution, law, or ethics. They see things in black and white without any annoying grayscale.

Most people who consider themselves Christians don't read the Bible, or at least not much.

...yet Christians sit here and preach that we must do what the Bible tells us word for word

Most denominations do not insist on a fully literalist interpretation of scripture. Many Christians interpret the Bible allegorically or even as containing an esoteric message.

A warning like Noah. Noah was created to warn the people of the flood, and no one listened

I would reread Genesis 6-9. Noah is not sent out to warn people about the flood, he is the one warned about it. You might be thinking of Jonah, who is sent out to warn the people of Nineveh of God's anger and to call them to repentance.

Every person mentioned in the Bible died, yet God promised they would live forever if they relied on Him

Christ doesn't promise that "you will never die." He promises a ressurection from death. This promise wasn't made before Christ, i.e., in the Old Testament of the Bible.

They turned God into an idol

Worship of God can't be idol worship. Idol worship bis forbidden specifically because it is 'worshipping the product of man's hands," rather than the creator of the universe. Idolatry is definitionally the worship of something that is not God.

The stories within the Bible show us scenes of gore, rape, slavery, and so many more violent acts, yet Christians sit here and preach that we must do what the Bible tells us word for word. — Edward235

Point me in the direction of this mythical group of Christians (or Jews) who hold that the Pentateuch is to be interpreted literally in isolation from all other religious literature for its meaning.

This is to say your concern is a strawman. There is a reason Jews and Christians don't stone children, despite what the Bible might say. It has to do with the fact that the Pentateuch is not accepted by any group I am aware of as the sole guiding document for all life decisions.

That the Christians have a New Testament and the Jews a Talmud is a good reason to question the assumptions of your OP.

The idea that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, to be taken literally from Genesis to Revelations is a recent innovation in the 2000 year history of the faith. — Bitter Crank

So very true. It's frustrating that people believe the reactionary literalism to be all that religion ever was or is.
Over a thousand years of Jewish midrash and Christian exegesis goes so far beyond a strict four corners literalism.

Hello @Edward235,

I am seeing reply posts that are generally inspired towards what I wanted to say, but I would like to provide further explication. Firstly, I am not a Christian myself. No offense meant, but I think that your post is over generalizing Christianity as a whole into on oddly specific classification (flavor, if you will) called biblical literalism. However, even biblical literalists wouldn't subscribe to most of what you said (I would say). Here are my thoughts:

The Bible presented among Christian believers, is a collection of stories written by supposed divine inspiration...yet Christians sit here and preach that we must do what the Bible tells us word for word

Although I may just be misunderstanding you, "divine inspiration" is not equivocal to inerrancy ("word for word"). Some Christians claim that the bible is divinely inspired with the careful consideration that, due to it being produced by faulty humans, it is not inerrant. Others claim both. To be quite frank, most Christians do not, even if they claim inerrancy, believe that one should obey the Old Testament literally: they typically either believe it is merely allegorical/metaphorical or/and the New Testament is a "New Covenant". The biblical literalists typically view it in the latter sense, which means they will not agree with you that, although they do think it literally happened, every one should slaughter an animal for God to forgive them of their sins. This is of the "Old Covenant", not "New Covenant" that succeeds Jesus' sacrifice. I've never met a single Christian biblical literalist that genuinely believes that every should follow the rules decreed in the Old Testament without the consideration of the New Covenant.

The stories within the Bible show us scenes of gore, rape, slavery, and so many more violent acts

As others have pointed out, it can be interpreted metaphorically, allegorically, or as a parable. Sometimes stories are not meant to be analyzed literally. Although I understand your quarrel with the Old Testament (in a literal sense) and share your frustration, which I do concede has many abhorrent depictions of actions, most biblical literalists take a position that typically holds that essentially when God does it, it cannot be morally wrong: He is the standard of good. They typically subscribe to a very absolute objective morality. Now, I'm not advocating that they are right, I merely attempting to provide you with a bit more exposition into Christianity (specifically biblical literalism). From their perspective, if God outright strikes you down where you stand, He can do so because He created you and you will ascend into heaven for eternity. Imagine that you genuinely believed that if God zapped you dead where stand right now, you will be freed from this life of suffering and ascend into a paradise forever. That is, from my conversations with many literalists, what they generally claim in a nutshell.

Imagine if the Bible wasn't written as a prophetic work, but instead a warning from the divine.

There's also the Gnostics who believed that the Old Testament God was actually Satan and the New Testament God was the true God that sent his son to fix the damage. My point is not that any of these interpretations are necessarily right, just that there are indeed many interpretations. Personally, I only find any value in what is metaphorical or allegorical in the Bible (simply the literary aspect), so I am hesitant to agree with you that the Bible is holistically a warning message from an actual "God" and none of it is prophetic. I guess it depends on what you mean by "prophetic" as well: I don't think there's any truth to any alleged prophecies in the Bible, but prophets are a literary archetype, which is common amongst all the most well known western books of literature (which I find nothing wrong with at all).

A warning like Noah. Noah was created to warn the people of the flood, and no one listened. Then, after Noah built the ark, God flooded the world. It doesn't seem like a prophecy, but a warning instead

The main objective of the Great Flood was for God, in a literal sense, to press the reset button. He was so horrified by the evil that humanity had produced that he decided to wipe it out (quite frankly, and this is my bias coming out, mass genocide). As far as my knowledge goes, it wasn't a prophecy or really a warning at all (sure, there's a bit of dialogue about people laughing at Noah building the ark, but God wasn't really interested, as the story goes, in getting Noah to convince everyone to get on the ark: they weren't welcome): God was simply sparing Noah's life (8-9 people, if I remember correctly). Holistically, it may have been a warning to the reader to hope humanity doesn't get evil enough where God decides to hit that reset button again, but, besides that, I'm not sure I follow you here.

Every person mentioned in the Bible died, yet God promised they would live forever if they relied on Him.

If I may be so bold (and no offense meant): this is utterly incorrect. God never once in the Bible promised that anyone would live forever on earth. Although the Bible does claim two men never died as a result of their unwavering faith to God; For example, Elijah was ascended into heaven without ever dying in a chariot of fire (according to the Bible, of course). God promises in the Bible "everlasting life", which has no correlation to how long one lives on earth: it is an eternity in heaven.

Maybe, just maybe, the Bible tells us what the men and women of that time were doing was wrong.

I think I would need you to go a bit more in depth here to properly respond, as I would say most Christians would agree with you to a certain extent. Many verses in the Bible pertain to exactly what people were doing that was considered "evil", and proclamations to not do it. But the Old Testament is not so clear about what I am presuming you are talking about (such as slavery).

They turned God into an idol.

I think the terminology is incorrect here: an "idol" is defined as that which is deviation from God. In other words, "idol" only has a meaning relative to what one thinks they should be giving to God. That is why money is considered an idol: it can possess a man into deviation from worshiping God. Therefore, it makes no sense to say God is an idol: that is the same thing as saying that one is deviating from worshiping God to worship God instead.

Maybe, Christians are misunderstanding the text

I am honestly not seeing how anything you said supports this claim. What Christians? Which sector? Which flavor? All of them? When you say "They coveted their neighbor's houses", most Christians agree that coveting is a sin.

Bob

The promised land was secured by violence. "Kill them all." Deuteronomy 20:16-18. Was this a surprising innovation by God, or just standard operating procedure in armed conquest? More the latter, I would think. — Bitter Crank

There are instances in the OT where God demands the men, women, children, and animals of a people be destroyed. The reason God gives the Promised Land to the Hebrews is because the practices of the other tribes/people in Canaan were described as vile and its mentioned several times how the land had to "vomit" them up. The promise land isn't given because the Hebrews are good, but because everyone else was terrible.

Maybe, Christians are misunderstanding the text. — Edward235

Of course Christians misunderstand the Bible. This is why, I guess, we should look into Theists and their pursue of understanding the bible in a "philosophical" way. There are even some intellectuals who are open to criticism towards Bible. Keep in mind that this was even one of the issues because of some priest have broken apart making another kinds of interpretations inside the rule of Church

This is wild shot, but what if the words "do not" is something like "me" in "heeeellllp!"? So, "the Almighty commanded kill them all" is actually "the Almighty commanded do not kill them all."

Also, it's possible that the original Biblia Sacra was written in a way that reading it was supposed to done by semantic inversion i.e. the word "kill" has the true meaning save.

I guess what I'm getting at is the Good Book has to be read upside down! :grin:

So, "the Almighty commanded kill them all" is actually "the Almighty commanded do not kill them all. — Agent Smith

:flower:

Responding to recent events on Earth, God, the omniscient creator-deity worshipped by billions of followers of various faiths for more than 6,000 years, angrily clarified His longtime stance against humans killing each other Monday.

“Look, I don’t know, maybe I haven’t made myself completely clear, so for the record, here it is again,” — The Onion, after 9-11

https://www.theonion.com/god-angrily-clarifies-dont-kill-rule-1819566178

From their perspective, if God outright strikes you down where you stand, He can do so because He created you and you will ascend into heaven for eternity. Imagine that you genuinely believed that if God zapped you dead where stand right now, you will be freed from this life of suffering and ascend into a paradise forever. That is, from my conversations with many literalists, what they generally claim in a nutshell. — Bob Ross

I agree with some of this post but I don't know where you're getting the "ascend into heaven for eternity" bit. The OT says next to nothing about the afterlife; is that NT stuff? In the OT when Korah challenges Moses God opens up the Earth and all of Korah and his family fall in and are destroyed. God often strikes down evil people in the OT and nothing would lead me to believe that they end up in heaven. He also sends plagues and poisonous snakes on the Israelite community because they start complaining ("grumbling") about conditions in the desert and thousands are recorded as dying. Their sin here is really just weakness and disobedience. It's very much "beatings will continue until morale improves." In this sense I see God kind of analogous to evolutionary reality. There are other times where he's more of a stern law giver.

heir sin here is really just weakness and disobedience. It's very much "beatings will continue until morale improves." In this sense I see God kind of analogous to evolutionary reality. There are other times where he's more of a stern law giver. — Moses

Interesting analogy. If you don't comply with the dictates of a given society.. indeed you do get "beat down" because you aren't playing nicely with the setup. Life itself has its dictates (you must survive, get comfort when you can, entertainment). Too much rebellion and you are cast out and death ensues. The hidden defense though is simply to not procreate and continue the situation for others.. But apparently people love sacrificing others on the alter of selfishness and they need to see others go through the same. Sad really. All are petty gods of sorts then.

:smile:

Interesting analogy. If you don't comply with the dictates of a given society.. indeed you do get "beat down" because you aren't playing nicely with the setup. — schopenhauer1

While I agree with this, this isn't exactly how I interpreted God's punishments towards the Israelites in Exodus. Basically what's happening is that after God frees the Israelites from Egypt they still have to wander 40 years in the desert and conditions are presumably tough even despite God sending mana. On at least two occasions the general Israelite community starts complaining (the word they use is "grumbling") and God quickly makes things worse. Of course it's not advantageous to sit around and grumble all day. I've been reading the OT lately and it's ridiculously great for evolutionary fitness both on a personal and societal level.

The hidden defense though is simply to not procreate and continue the situation for others.. — schopenhauer1

You likely know this but this belief is in an opposition to Genesis and God's pronouncement that life/creation is good. Even if one's life is full of suffering life is still good. If I were an atheist I might/would likely agree with you here though. I think your position is plausible if we remove God.

Rationalization! Sublimation! Ring any bells?

Well you should avoid the bible ONLY if you are against Slavery, Incest, Human and Animal Sacrifices, Genocides, Situational Ethics, Gay rights and ...life, providing your daughter as a sex toy to strangers, keeping prisoners of wars as your sex slaves, Prostitutes that lust the donkey like genitals and emissions of their lovers and of stories about circumcisions and how you can use it as an excuse to kill neighboring populations..... Fun stuff !

You likely know this but this belief is in an opposition to Genesis and God's pronouncement that life/creation is good. Even if one's life is full of suffering life is still good. If I were an atheist I might/would likely agree with you here though. I think your position is plausible if we remove God. — Moses

Let me ask you this.. what would happen if everyone stopped procreating on some divine theological level?

I meant "everyone stopped procreating" not "no one"

Let me ask you this.. what would happen if everyone stopped procreating on some divine theological level? — schopenhauer1

They'd still procreate on a non-divine/theological level. Sex is fun and a bigger population is generally a good thing.

They'd still procreate on a non-divine/theological level. Sex is fun and a bigger population is generally a good thing. — Moses

Is a bigger population a good thing, necessarily? I hold the views of a philosophical pessimist.. life presents itself as a burden to be overcome daily. We are always at root, dissatisfied and must contend with our own dissatisfaction and to overcome them in our situatedness at any given time in a socio-cultural-economic-political context. On top of this inherent dissatisfaction are contingent harms that befall us based on circumstances...Procreation causes all this for yet another person. But not procreating prevents suffering, burden-overcoming, dissatisfaction, and all harms unto another person.

If no one procreates, no one loses. "Who" is missing out? No one.

The answer you're looking might be that the world would be empty if everyone stopped procreating. But God intended for the world to be populated; he created it so life could inhabit it. That's what Genesis tells us.

Is a bigger population a good thing, necessarily? — schopenhauer1

Necessarily, no. Generally speaking, yes.

If no one procreates, no one loses. "Who" is missing out? No one. — schopenhauer1

I disagree with this. Your culture and ideals are at risk if you don't procreate. In the OT people are conceived of as a genetic line, not as atomistic individuals and by not procreating that line ends along with its customs, traditions, and whatever else is associated with it. Adults are deprived of the experience of being parents and their parents are deprived of grand children. I would say that there's a deprivation.

Why can't I just kill myself under your system if I have good reason to suspect that the rest of my life will be painful and I don't have much to live for? Doesn't suicide become dangerously reasonable?

The Old Testament describes, in exquisite detail, what blind worship leads to, what absolute power and authority utlimately transforms into (a megalomaniac). — Agent Smith

Have you actually read the OT in its entirety? The OT does not advocate or describe blind worship. Of course obedience is important but that obedience to God is not blind or unquestioning.

I disagree with this. Your culture and ideals are at risk if you don't procreate. — Moses

So? You make that sound like a bad thing. Extinction sounds perfectly reasonable to many folk.

Why can't I just kill myself under your system if I have good reason to suspect that the rest of my life will be painful and I don't have much to live for? Doesn't suicide become dangerously reasonable? — Moses

I hate to tell you this but entire philosophies have been based on this premise that (e.g.,Camus) “There is only one really serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide."

So? You make that sound like a bad thing. Extinction sounds perfectly reasonable to many folk. — Tom Storm

Then go be extinct. Don't procreate. Commit suicide when you have a bad day (don't actually do this, but if you're living out this philosophy then you would because human life is essentially worthless under this line of thought.) For those who just don't care about dying or going extinct -- why don't you live out your philosophy? You will be dead quickly and I wouldn't have to debate any more pessimists because they would all be dead. IMO philosophies need to be lived out and if one's philosophy is constantly telling one to kill themselves or to consider killing themselves then that philosophy ought to be stamped out via its believers living it to its logical conclusion.

I hate to tell you this but entire philosophies have been based on this premise that (e.g.,Camus) “There is only one really serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide." — Tom Storm

I agree that suicide is a legit philosophical problem among philosophers but it's really not one if you go by the major religions. This is why religions tend to stick. I don't know why anyone would want to live in a society where suicide was insanely normalized and human life was valueless. That would be a terrible society. It reminds me of a quote in Deuteronomy that claims that the Torah (pentateuch) is life. As someone who has struggled with suicide this really strikes me as true.

I don't know why anyone would want to live in a society where suicide was insanely normalized and human life was valueless. — Moses

Yes, you don't know why, but people don't share value systems and often construct totally different worlds from each other.

Then go be extinct. Don't procreate. — Moses

Well, antinatalism is a significant school of thought and there are many threads on this on the TPF.

By the way - I do not share these views, just pointing them out.