The term ‘light’ is similar, in some ways, to the term ‘god’. It is ‘created’ as a means of encapsulating phenomena.

For me the so-called ‘religious tendency’ of humanity is more or less about creative interpretation that happens to serve memory and recall through emotive power. It is not much of a stretch to see how such a power mental tool can fashion a ‘god’ as an overarching view of ‘reality’.

Like how singing seems to be a natural extension of speech! :up:

Some would argue it is not an ‘extension’ but rather a piece of the ‘machinery’ of language - spoken or otherwise.

The Chorus in ancient Greece kind of outline what I mean by this. There is something interesting about how they were used in drama - and of course we have a rather myopic view of ‘drama’ in the modern world today but it was/is more ‘ritualistic’ in other cultures.

Clifford Geertz did some nice work in Bali on this. The ‘audience’ participated in ‘plays’ and entered trance states. In modern cinema it is easy to view ‘viewing a movie’ as something passive rather than an active engagement because that is how it has evolved over time.

it was/is more ‘ritualistic’ in other cultures. — I like sushi

That seems to be the case. Entertainment was not it; getting in touch with your inner child, lover, monster, saint, that was the goal.

trance states. — I like sushi

BS, more like sublimation, rationalization on steroids. Trying to make yourself feel better about...

it has evolved over time. — I like sushi

What hasn't?

Religion seems to be approaching an endpoint that many will not like: to be is the value of a variable, the x = 0. Does 0 be?

BS, more like sublimation, rationalization on steroids. Trying to make yourself feel better about... — Agent Smith

Not sure what that means? I was talking about instances where members of the ‘audience’ took on the role of one of the representations on stage - sometimes they would kill, kill themselves eat feces or numerous other things. Full on Dionysus crap

Not sure what that means? I was talking about instances where members of the ‘audience’ took on the role of one of the representations on stage - sometimes they would kill, kill themselves eat feces or numerous other things. Full on Dionysus crap — I like sushi

Why did you think that was relevant? I was freewheeling, winging it as it were, as there doesn't seem to be a point to the discussion except perhaps the one you had in mind. So, what was on your mind?

In terms of ‘theism’ I think polytheism makes more sense as people can role play certain things and deal with problems piecemeal rather than try and ‘act out’ being Jesus or some such thing.

The relevance in what I mentioned above is that this is something innate to humans and can be seen in all cultures. It might therefore be worth paying attention to it if we are interested in ourselves, our place and the general meanings we foster life.

Religion fascinates me no end. There are some common features across all cultures that related to altered states of consciousness. Key triggers are key to rituals within religious institutes alongside numerous mnemonic techniques.

altered states of consciousness. — I like sushi

BS! Whatever floats your boat, sir/madam!

In terms of ‘theism’ I think polytheism makes more sense as people can role play certain things and deal with problems piecemeal rather than try and ‘act out’ being Jesus or some such thing. — I like sushi

What's the problem if I act out being Jesus? Actors do that (you mentioned role play). I'm presently trying to simulate Jesus; not really though, more like theia mania (it's part of spirituality, not necessarily religion, and I can see now why "religion fascinates me (you) to no end". Give it a go!).

Key triggers — I like sushi

:lol: You're in the zone yourself! Enjoy!

think polytheism makes more sense as people can role play certain things and deal with problems piecemeal rather than try and ‘act out’ being Jesus or some such thing. — I like sushi

Wise words! Would you believe me when I say I had a revelation that I saw in a dream?

BS! Whatever floats your boat, sir/madam! — Agent Smith

Why is that bs?

Why is that bs? — EugeneW

For reasons I can't tell you sweet EugeneW. Search for the phrase: Darwinain sorcery! Oops! I did it again!

You think neuroscience is bullshit? ASC’s are known phenomena. They are not woo woo, just certain brain states that do weird things.

You think neuroscience is bullshit? ASC’s are known phenomena. They are not woo woo, just certain brain states that do weird things. — I like sushi

If you say so.

Not just me. A number of prominent neuroscientists.

Triggers include:

- sleep dep
- fasting
- dancing
- intense focus
- hyperventilation

Basically, things that stress the body. These all feature in religious practices and they have some beneficial uses but can obviously be dangerous.

Consensus doesn't imply truth! There are no altered states of consciousness, just different perspectives! Would you go from one window in your house to the next and then conclude, just because the view has changed, that you're in a different house?

These all feature in religious practices and they have some beneficial uses but can obviously be dangerous. — I like sushi

But if you consider the theology manmade, what substance has it?

What are you talking about? There is plenty of scientific literature about such states. Alter states of consciousness are not ‘in a different house’ as you put it. I assume you are implying that the term means something happening ‘outside the brain’ … absolutely not.

If you take various drugs you can induce this state. Again, various other triggers can induce such states.

Try telling someone tripping on mushrooms that experience is not ‘altered’ in any way. That is what I am talking about and why your response seems bafflingly uninformed. The term Altered State of Consciousness is a scientific term to describe (funnily enough) an altered state of consciousness.

If you have never heard of the term before a quick glance here should suffice (not that I’ve read it):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness

Darwinain sorcery! — Agent Smith

Darwinism: Sorcery in the Classroom?

Well, I would not put it like that exactly. It is more of an expression of human existence. A natural means of dealing with the immediate environment and possible otherness beyond our sense of selfhood.

‘Substance’? I stories have a certain impetus/‘substance’ to them. If you are trying for some kind of dualism I simply do not go into that any more as the phenomenological view on that suffices - as in I don’t care much about ‘the material’ nature of nature just the human lived experience (in the sense of religious practices and the general weltenschuuang).

As with stories, cultures and traditions, they chop and change over time. If there was some ‘god’ within this that I wished to put a label on it would to attempt to suggest to you that the ‘god’ you seem only able to vaguely define is more or less nothing more than the process of spontaneously creating narratives to map onto the world and said narratives affect through feedback.

That is why I view what you seem to call ‘god’ as the communication between sacred and profane (not that there is a real delineation between the two as humans implant some degree of ‘sacred’ upon every experience they have that moves them - and everything ‘moves’ us in some way.

A guy called Derren Brown refers to certain actions we make as ‘pantomimes’. One example he gave was if you walk down a street and realise you forgot something you articulate it by gesticulation or saying something out loud before turning around and walking back in the direction you’ve just come from. You will also act out such .pantomimes when alone. This is a step towards the ‘sacred’.

For a more obvious set of examples … birthdays, your bedroom, a classroom, a necklace and such. All have haboured within them memories and meanings that make mere places/items have more meaning beyond the ‘profane’.

Note: when I talk about ‘communicating’ between profane and sacred I don’t mean this literally. It is just an abstract way of expressing this. I’m not a dualist in this sense of the discussion because I’m coming at it from a phenomenological perspective.

I stand corrected. Sorry. There are altered mental states. I have myself participated in the development of a triage algorithm for the critically ill in which altered sensorium is a cardinal sign of what ER physicians call "crash".

However, matter of concern, either we've been misled by shamans on psychedelics or all believers are delirious, that includes philosophers of religion. Choose!

to suggest to you that the ‘god’ you seem only able to vaguely define — I like sushi

Vaguely define? The universe is a carbon copy of heaven. All creatures in the universe exist as gods in heaven. What's vague?

It is the conviction of being ‘misled’ I would have some qualms with. The fact is such experiences happen (hence my phenomenological approach rather than stating what is or isn’t ‘real’).

Maybe it is merely a … damn! I forget the term … originally an architectural term that referred to spaces between arches that serve no structural purpose yet were used for decoration … my minds gone blank!

Anyway, … Ah! There it is … Spandrel. Maybe it is a Spandrel, and some people suggest that art is a spandrel.

Either way there are benefits to ASC’s. Like with nuclear power we can destroy or create. There is a powerful property to such experiences either way and the main thrust of my point here is that it serves us to investigate. The most commonly reported and featured experiences appear to have been recorded in religious doctrines and I am saying the practices listed seem beyond coincidence in how they align with known triggers for ASC’s.

The definition of ‘god’. You said they/it is ‘infinite’ and ‘eternal’ but we have no direct experience of such concepts so it does not make sense to talk about what such beings do anymore than a race of people would be able to see colour.

If something is beyond us it is nothing to us. To speak of what is nothing is a fruitless exercise.

The definition of ‘god’. You said they/it is ‘infinite’ and ‘eternal — I like sushi

The gods are not infinite and eternal. Heaven is.

I see the general direction you wish to take this discussion, but I feel you should say something...can't find the words. Sorry, you'll have to figure it out yourself. Godspeed!

Just to be clear, altered mental states are, I'm told, considered pathological i.e. they're mental illnesses requiring therapy. Is religion a delusion i.e. is atheism true? In other words, am I right that the variable in question, X = 0?

but we have no direct experience of such concepts so it does not make sense to talk about what such beings do anymore than a race of people would be able to see colour — I like sushi

We have direct experience of the universe. Heaven is just as the universe. The difference is that it's divine. We, and all universal creatures, just act out what they did eternally.

Homosexuality was also framed as such. Times move on.

When there are numerous cases of addictions, schizophrenia and other brain disorders being cured by use of psychedelics, as well as their use in helping people live more meaningful lives, I wouldn’t call such instances as being purely ‘mental illnesses’ when they cure said ‘illnesses’ in various examples.

It is an area that is seeing more and more research thankfully. It could all just be meaningless delusional mental sludge … it might be more than that though. My personal experiences lead me to believe there is more than simply a negative effect of such experiences (although not something that may be apparent or true for all!).

We have a rather limited and finite experience of the universe. There is no evidence to suggest what you are suggesting. It is a story only.

We have a rather limited and finite experience of the universe. There is no evidence to suggest what you are suggesting. It is a story only. — I like sushi

How do you know? If it's just a story why even telling it? If you have closed all gaps, what's left to conclude? The gods made it clear in a dream and some people on this forum helped even for the story to become. How do you know its a fantasy story?

I don’t. My point is that if such beings exist they are beyond my conception so talking about them is futile just like talking about square circles.

I know there are things beyond my immediate experience, and certainly beyond my finite existence. That does not then give me a clear and definitive reason to state with certainty what such items ‘beyond me’ are.