• _db
    3.6k
    Linguistics / philosophy of language is not something I am very familiar with, so I find it difficult to articulate exactly what I am thinking about here, though it has been on my mind recently.

    Consider the proposition "Congress is a dumpster fire". This is a metaphor that is meant to draw attention to the fact that something about Congress resembles a dumpster fire. If it were a simile, it might be "Congress is like a dumpster fire" or "Congress is as ___ as a dumpster fire", but it might accomplish the same thing.

    A metaphor would not be a metaphor if the objects being compared were actually identical. "John is a man" is not a metaphor; "John is a monster" is a metaphor.

    From this, it seems like while metaphors can be useful in illustrating resemblances between things, it fundamentally is not a claim of identity. But it also seems that they are used in this way a lot, illicitly, oftentimes in politics.

    For instance, take this propaganda poster from World War One:

    1.jpg?h=531&w=355&sc_lang=en&hash=DDB506F4D2FAC1545EEB35BD38C4257A

    The German soldier is equated to a bloodthirsty ape. This metaphor illustrated that the German army was involved in serious crimes. But obviously none of the German soldiers were actual club-bearing apes, so this poster cannot be taken to be a completely factual depiction of reality.

    I like using metaphors and so do most people, they are fun and can be powerful ways of conveying ideas. But my question is, are they valid ways of conveying ideas? Is it valid to use metaphors to illustrate certain attributes of an object, even though the objects being compared are not actually identical (although they are said to be)?
  • jas0n
    328
    There are some exciting theories on this theme. For instance:

    It is a system of metaphor that structures our everyday conceptual system, including most abstract concepts, and that lies behind much of everyday language. The discovery of this enormous metaphor system has destroyed the traditional literal-figurative distinction, since the term literal, as used in defining the traditional distinction, carries with it all those false assumptions. — Lakoff

    https://terpconnect.umd.edu/~israel/lakoff-ConTheorMetaphor.pdf

    I recommend Metaphors We Live By. Lakoff's work on math is also good, if you like math.

    Derrida's White Mythology is an excellent though more difficult text. Anatole France reduced metaphysics to anemic metaphors, but this requires employing metaphor (itself an anemic or dead metaphor) as a metaphysical crowbar, forgotten by the critique it enables.

    Another source:

    Analogies—which we make constantly, relentlessly and mostly unconsciously—are what allow categorization to happen, he said. "Our minds are constructed with an unlimited quality for 'chunking' primordial concepts, which then become larger concepts."

    Hofstadter used as an example the word "hub," as in "Denver is the hub for United Airlines," and displayed a hand-drawn chart mapping words representing some of the linked concepts that are "chunked" together to make up the commonly used term. His examples ranged from basics like "wheel" and "node" to higher-order concepts like "spoke" and "network." Higher-order concepts are glommed together from lower-order ones, he said.

    There's no fundamental difference in thinking with basic concepts and very large concepts because we don't "see" inside them, he said. "We build concepts by putting several concepts together and putting a membrane around them, and kind of miraculously these [interior] concepts disappear."
    ...
    Underground competition is going on in every word choice, in every situation and at all times, Hofstadter said. "We are trying to put labels on things by mapping situations that we have encountered before. That to me is nothing but analogy."
    https://news.stanford.edu/news/2006/february22/hofstadter-021506.html#:~:text=Analogy%20is%20the%20%22motor%20of,has%20written%20on%20topics%20including
  • _db
    3.6k
    Interesting stuff, thanks. Always a cool feeling when you learn that you're not alone with your puzzlement.

    If analogy is such a prevalent thing in our cognition, then it would seem to be necessary (though perhaps not completely possible) to find some way of talking about this phenomenon without participating in it, in order to reach a true understanding of it and the world in general. Any true proposition cannot be self-contradictory (e.g. "everything is subjective", "nothing is true", "all propositions are metaphors", etc).

    In what way are analogies different from hallucinations? Believing that John is a monster is different from believing that John shares characteristics with monsters; metaphors allow us to say the former while meaning the latter. But a lot of the power behind analogies seems to come from the way people forget that they are analogies and take them to be identity claims, which would seem to make them hallucinations. It is easier to kill a German if you think they literally are a club-bearing ape, etc
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Metaphors are, as presented in the OP, basically analogies - comparing one thing to another, emphasizing how they resemble each other (so much).

    The primary subject (the thing you want to make a point about) is, in a sense, reduced to the analog (that which is being used as a yardstick/standard).

    There's a clear and present danger of commiting the strawman fallacy as the analog is, on most occasion, simpler (cartoonish) than the primary subject; there's a thin line between simplifying and oversimplifying I suppose.

    Metaphors also tend to pop up in situations where the words to express certain thoughts and, mostly feelings are missing from a standard dictionary. Examples? Think of one on your own. I promise it'll be worth your while.

    @jas0n and I had a conversation on this topic and he wished to point out that though metaphors are useful - they can add that zing that makes conversations interesting to say the least - they're also, in a certain sense, pitfalls for they, I surmise, constrain a person to a particular point of view, a one-dimensional way of looking at things that though helpful can result in tunnel vision. Am I right jasOn?
  • jas0n
    328
    If analogy is such a prevalent thing in our cognition, then it would seem to be necessary (though perhaps not completely possible) to find some way of talking about this phenomenon without participating in it, in order to reach a true understanding of it and the world in general._db

    My current opinion is that we are mostly stuck using new metaphors to dislodge old ones. Consider Wittgenstein's fly in the bottle, or his insistence that we tend to be misled by pictures. Metaphors warning us of metaphors, but of course it's the hidden metaphor that traps us, hence the transparency of the bottle. Rorty discusses the mirror of nature as a candidate for an especially dominant 'picture' of this kind. I prefer the synonymous metaphor of lens. The point is mediation. Philosophy dreamed/dreams of mastering/articulating the structure of all possible experience by figuring out the nature of the mirror/lens. Then there's Plato's cave. Locke's tabula rasa. The list goes on. If metaphor/analogy is the essence of cognition, then any 'true' understanding would be only the latest dominant metaphor? Like the metaphor metaphor...
  • jas0n
    328
    they're also, in a certain sense, pitfalls for they, I surmise, constrain a person to a particular point of view, a one-dimensional way of looking at things that though helpful can result in tunnel vision.Agent Smith

    The past haunts a future that haunts the present. Inherited metaphors frame possible futures. We need the same dead metaphors that trap us. We are snakes climbing out of our skins, Neurathian rafts of metaphors clusters.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    we are mostly stuckjas0n

    Indeed! Maybe metaphors occur as systems e.g., I juat found out, theatrical metaphors ("All the world's a stage..."; Shakesepeare) could limit one's understanding, viewing everything in terms of actors/plays/movies/etc.

    Likewise, each domain of human activity may serve to construct a metaphorical system specific to it e.g. there could be physics metaphors, a sociological one, and so on.
  • jas0n
    328
    Maybe metaphors occur as systemsAgent Smith
    :up:

    I like looking at it that way. The 'big' metaphors are the basic structures of an era or a personality.
  • jas0n
    328
    there could be physics metaphorsAgent Smith

    @apokrisis and I were discussing the machine versus organism metaphor as applied to physics/nature.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    If I may fuse Wittgenstein and Gadamer, then I postulate that 'automatic' metaphor (the kind we act on without noticing) is hugely important for us to be intelligible to one another. At the same time it's one of the major opponents of the philosopher. My fancy way of putting it is...the past that haunts the future that haunts the present. We are future oriented beings whose very goals are determined by inherited ways of talking/thinking. But it's only this inheritance that lets us think at all.

    I ask myself how language could develop to include more and more 'literal' abstractions. I don't think some God put the idea of cause and God and rationality in our skulls. I imagine we'd have had to start with names for objects and embed them in a dialogue that lifted them from such a narrow use.
    jas0n

    Yep, I remember how I tried to modernize Plato's Allegory of the Cave and simply couldn't find anything in today's world that could replace "shadows" and "cave". One philosopher comes close to achieving this using the images on an idiot box (TV) to replace the shadows on the wall of Plato's cave.

    Suggestion: It's time we updated the metaphors we find so useful and adapt them to current times so that people can relate to them more easily. An example of a successful metaphor rehash is the brain-in-a-vat gedanken experiment.
  • jas0n
    328
    An example of a successful metaphor rehash is the brain-in-a-vat gedanken experiment.Agent Smith
    :up:

    It's time we updated the metaphors we find so useful and adapt them to current times so that people can relate to them more easily.Agent Smith

    T. S. Eliot is pretty great on this. Reminds me of Hegel/Feuerbach too.

    Eliot challenges the common perception that a poet's greatness and individuality lie in their departure from their predecessors; he argues that "the most individual parts of his [the poet's] work may be those in which the dead poets, his ancestors, assert their immortality most vigorously." Eliot claims that this "historical sense" is not only a resemblance to traditional works but an awareness and understanding of their relation to his poetry.

    This fidelity to tradition, however, does not require the great poet to forfeit novelty in an act of surrender to repetition. Rather, Eliot has a much more dynamic and progressive conception of the poetic process: novelty is possible only through tapping into tradition. ...The act of artistic creation does not take place in a vacuum. The introduction of a new work alters the cohesion of this existing order, and causes a readjustment of the old to accommodate the new. The inclusion of the new work alters the way in which the past is seen... In Eliot’s own words, "What happens when a new work of art is created is something that happens simultaneously to all the works of art that preceded it." Eliot refers to this organic tradition, this developing canon, as the "mind of Europe." The private mind is subsumed by this more massive one.
    ...
    Since the poet engages in a "continual surrender of himself" to the vast order of tradition, artistic creation is a process of depersonalisation. The mature poet is viewed as a medium, through which tradition is channelled and elaborated. The poet is a depersonalised vessel, a mere medium.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradition_and_the_Individual_Talent

    You can see above that the future haunts the past too.
  • jas0n
    328
    This is a grand, self-endangering claim but maybe relevant.
    What, then, is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins. — Nietzsche
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    Yep, I remember how I tried to modernize Plato's Allegory of the Cave and simply couldn't find anything in today's world that could replace "shadows" and "cave".Agent Smith

    I think the update is simulation theory.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    I concur, the light that once was, of some metaphors, has clearly gone out. Panta rhei: it's an ineluctable consequence of the larger process of change/transformation (anicca).

    However, has that much water flowed under the bridge to make some historical/ancient metaphors utterly useless? It's been just 2.5k years since philosophy took root and literature too, language has been around for roughly 7k years tops. Perhaps there's still life in these "ancient" metaphors, they still pack a punch if you know what I mean. We still have caves, fire, people, and shadows.

    Anyway, thanks for sharing your views on such an exciting topic.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    I think the update is simulation theory.Tom Storm

    :up:
  • jas0n
    328
    I think the update is simulation theory.Tom Storm

    :up:

    Which I can't make sense of, so maybe I'm Cypher. It hurts to stub my toe, whether or not I call the pain 'real' or 'simulated.'
  • jas0n
    328
    Another version of the metaphor theory:
    In a similar way, Schlegel affirms that our encounters with the world are always poetical, in the sense that they are not be merely receptive, but also creative. Reality exists through language, or, in other words, we always relate to the world metaphorically. This also means that there cannot be an ‘absolute’ (i.e., an absolutely true) way of referring to the external world, for we do not see the world as it is, but always in relation to ourselves. Schlegel’s theory of language is thus intrinsically connected to his theory of mythology. Both in his Jena and in his Berlin lectures, Schlegel stressed the fact the experience of an existing totality has a mythological basis without which the experience itself would be impossible (Behler 1992: 77–78). Once again, Schlegel stressed the idea that mythology is not merely a phase of human rationality, but is part of our being in the world. It is a structural principle of human intellectual activity, the purest rational activity being a mythological one: be it in art, sciences, or in our daily activities, we always relate to the world metaphorically.

    In his letters, Schlegel claims that language is the “most wonderful creation of human being’s poetical talent”, because it is through language that human nature is able to reflect upon itself (SW: VII, 104).
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/schlegel-aw/#PhilArt
  • T Clark
    13.8k
    I don't have much to offer here except a recommendation that you take a look at a book by Julien Jaynes - "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind." An odd, odd book whose major premise I have a hard time swallowing. But Jaynes has some great things to say about consciousness and metaphor before he gets into his main subject. I suggest you take a look. Here's a link to a PDF version. Look at Chapter 2.

    https://nextexx.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/julian_jaynes_the_origin_of_consciousness.pdf

    Just a taste:

    We are trying to understand consciousness, but what are we really trying to do when we try to understand anything? Like children trying to describe nonsense objects, so in trying to understand a thing we are trying to find a metaphor for that thing. Not just any metaphor, but one with something more familiar and easy to our attention. Understanding a thing is to arrive at a metaphor for that thing by substituting something more familiar to us. And the feeling of familiarity is the feeling of understanding.
  • Joshs
    5.6k


    We need the same dead metaphors that trap us. We are snakes climbing out of our skins, Neurathian rafts of metaphors clusters.jas0n

    Maybe the metaphors arent as dead is it might seem:

    According to Gendlin, following Wittgenstein, an event(whether conceived as conceptual or bodily-physiological) is itself, at one time and in one gesture, the interbleeding between a prior context(source) and novel content(target). Gendlin(1995) says, in such a crossing of source and target, “each functions as already cross-affected by the other. Each is determined by, and also determines the other(p.555)”.

    All events are metaphorical in themselves, as a mutual inter-affecting of source and target escaping the binary of representation and arbitrariness.

    Gendlin(1997a) explains:

    Contrary to a long history, I have argued that a metaphor does not consist of two situations, a "source domain" and a "target domain". There is only one situation, the one in which the word is now used. What the word brings from elsewhere is not a situation; rather it brings a use-family, a great many situations. To understand an ordinary word, its use-family must cross with the present situation. This crossing has been noticed only in odd uses which are called "metaphors"...all word-use requires this metaphorical crossing(p.169).
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    The German soldier is equated to a bloodthirsty ape._db

    Doesn't seem bloodthirsty to me. Why did the poster convey to you the idea the ape, or German soldier, drank blood or was thirsty for it?
  • jgill
    3.8k
    "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind." An odd, odd book whose major premise I have a hard time swallowingT Clark

    But it's easy to think of the ancient Greek getting an idea and thinking it is a God speaking to him.
  • T Clark
    13.8k
    But it's easy to think of the ancient Greek getting an idea and thinking it is a God speaking to him.jgill

    I didn't reject his idea out of hand, although it certainly sounds outlandish. I just don't see how he justifies the idea. Have you read the book? As I noted, it has some interesting stuff in it. But the main idea seems farfetched.
  • Paine
    2.4k
    One of the roles of metaphor is to travel. Poetry as means of changing place and time.

    A Contemporary

    What if I came down now out of these
    solid dark clouds that build up against the mountain
    day after day with no rain in them
    and lived as a blade of grass
    in a garden in the south when the clouds part in winter
    from the beginning I would be older than all the animals
    and to the last I would be simpler
    frost would design me and dew would disappear on me
    sun would shine through me
    I would be green with white roots
    feel worms touch my feet as a bounty
    have no name and no fear
    turn naturally to the light
    know how to spend the day and night
    climbing out of myself
    all my life.
    — W.S. Merwin, Flower and Hand
  • _db
    3.6k
    Understanding a thing is to arrive at a metaphor for that thing by substituting something more familiar to us. And the feeling of familiarity is the feeling of understanding.T Clark

    :fire:

    Yeah I've read parts of Jayne's book, I don't think his theory of consciousness is taken that seriously anymore, though it was a cool idea.
  • _db
    3.6k
    Doesn't seem bloodthirsty to me. Why did the poster convey to you the idea the ape, or German soldier, drank blood or was thirsty for it?Ciceronianus

    There's blood on the club and the hands, though you're correct, "bloodthirsty" is an embellishment in the same vein (ditto) as the OP.
  • jgill
    3.8k
    Have you read the book? As I noted, it has some interesting stuff in it. But the main idea seems farfetched.T Clark

    Yes, some time ago. It's around the house somewhere, so I'll try to find it. The notion of voices in one's head from the various gods of the time - a kind of schizophrenia - doesn't seem so outlandish to me. But fun to contemplate.
  • Banno
    24.8k


    A metaphor shows something, rather than saying it.

    See What Metaphors Mean but Donald Davidson. A metaphor does not have a second, explicable meaning. A metaphor is not a way of conveying an idea. It does not say something more than its literal meaning.

    To see how metaphors work, one must look to their use. Seeing the poster as saying that germans are apes is literally false, and not the purpose of the poster. The poster gives you an insight, a way of seeing the events in Europe, such that you will be inspired to enlist.
  • jas0n
    328
    All events are metaphorical in themselves, as a mutual inter-affecting of source and target escaping the binary of representation and arbitrariness.Joshs

    If I can circumvent anticipatory hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia and perfunctory floccinaucinihilipilification, I'd like to suggest rolling smaller blunts.

    Contrary to a long history, I have argued that a metaphor does not consist of two situations, a "source domain" and a "target domain". There is only one situation, the one in which the word is now used. What the word brings from elsewhere is not a situation; rather it brings a use-family, a great many situations.Joshs

    Sounds to me like a longwinded description of a target domain ('the one situation') and a source domain ('a use-family, a great many situations.') Roughly the source is...the past.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Which I can't make sense of, so maybe I'm Cypher. It hurts to stub my toe, whether or not I call the pain 'real' or 'simulated.'jas0n

    Would the real hurt more than the simulation?

    It frequently pops up in discussions on Wittgenstein. Pain presumably collapses the pereceived boundary betwixt reality and dreams (illusions).
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    germans are apesBanno

    Correction! Aryan...apes?

    A metaphor shows something, rather than saying it.Banno

    :up: Rings true!
  • jas0n
    328
    Would the real hurt more than the simulation?

    It frequently pops up in discussions on Wittgenstein. Pain presumably collapses the pereceived boundary betwixt reality and dreams (illusions).
    Agent Smith

    I'm thinking we tend to aim a word like 'real' socially. If something caused lots of people pain at the same time, it'd be called real. But if you suffer alone, not so much ?
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