The white lie

Benj96

Consider you and your friend are getting ready for a night out. They come downstairs dressed up and ask “what do you think?”
You look at them and instantly think god they don’t look particularly good at all, what they’ve done is unflattering in your opinion and you would not wear that.

You consider how happy your friend seems to be with how they look. You are also aware that they value your opinion a lot but you know they are sensitive, their self esteem a little frail, and criticism can often get them down and upset.

Should you lie to bolster their confidence. Or would you simply be undermining them by being dishonest? And how do you know if your own judgement of fashion is better than theirs?
Which option makes you a more supportive friend?

This is a frequent encounter in our social lives. It’s a part of our social intelligence to be able to make decisions that minimise damage and maximise benefit for others. We know because of disorders like autism that brutal blunt honesty is not always the best option however neither is allowing someone to build a delusion and lack of self awareness because those around them are never upfront and direct.

It got me thinking about decision making in general. Can we ever be properly informed? As imperfect beings how do we know when to intervene and when to be passive? Are good intentions enough by themselves? How does one control how their actions impact the world when none of us have a definitive knowledge or right and wrong - a perfect moral compass by which to make decisions

Agent Smith

This topic has been done to death. White lies are always an option, but the results are unpredictable and that, in a way, undermines the rationale of pious fictions.

Why not we discuss the mirror image of white lies, black truths - truths, yes, but spoken/written with malice aforethought?

Ok, let's not.

White lies are simply untruths intended to avert suffering or catastrophes. Religion, according to some thinkers, is a gennaion pseudos (noble lie). Can anyone forecast what the world would be like if people were to find out God didn't exist? For some, the only thing preventing a descent into moral depravity maybe the uncertainty of God's existence.

Moreover, even the worst of villains tend to be less malevolent when they're, even in the smallest way, religious - I'd rather be kidnapped by a person with a crucifix around his neck than one without. Given how delicate the matter is, it's better for anyone who has info that could settle the issue i.e. prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that god isn't real to keep mum about it.

Speech is silver, silence is golden. — Arabian proverb

Audi, Vide, Tace!

Yohan

Language is symbolic, metaphoric, adding a degree of sort of poetry or art, that is not innate to the experience?
In some sense, doesn't language "create", not only "communicate"?

baker

How does one control how their actions impact the world when none of us have a definitive knowledge or right and wrong - a perfect moral compass by which to make decisions — Benj96

Pretty much everyone I know IRL considers themselves to be morally objective, flawless. They are dead sure they are right.

L'éléphant

Should you lie to bolster their confidence. Or would you simply be undermining them by being dishonest? And how do you know if your own judgement of fashion is better than theirs?
Which option makes you a more supportive friend? — Benj96

I'm gonna respond in practical sense. No need to use philosophy or psychology. And you know, I know myself -- I shoot my mouth and then hope for "good" consequence.

So, to give them the benefit of the doubt, since they're already dressed, I would just relegate it to "they've made up their mind, otherwise, they've asked me for choices before putting on the clothes. (I'm speaking in real life experience). They look happy with their choice. I'd say, "let's go, that works" in sincere honesty. I could say it without me wanting to wear the clothes myself. And that's support of them. Respecting their tastes and not always insisting yours.

Anyway, I have my own sense of clothing which probably wouldn't work for them. Shit, I wear fitted clothing :wink: which would not work with others.

Benj96

↪baker

interesting. Yes I agree we often believe that because of our knowledge of our own intentions we believe our actions are removed from the question of morality. But just as a fool with a gun is dangerous, one that that never turns the spotlight of interrogation and rigorous judgement on themselves is at risk of attributing too great a benevolence to their own decisions.

Definitely i think many of us could do with a healthy respect for silence and inaction as a perfectly humble and self restraining reaction to situations in which we really aren’t sure what is right. Action does not always trump passivity

baker

one that that never turns the spotlight of interrogation and rigorous judgement on themselves is at risk of attributing too great a benevolence to their own decisions. — Benj96

Why should this be a problem?

Harry Hindu

Consider you and your friend are getting ready for a night out. They come downstairs dressed up and ask “what do you think?”
You look at them and instantly think god they don’t look particularly good at all, what they’ve done is unflattering in your opinion and you would not wear that.

You consider how happy your friend seems to be with how they look. You are also aware that they value your opinion a lot but you know they are sensitive, their self esteem a little frail, and criticism can often get them down and upset. — Benj96

Full stop. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone that cannot handle criticism. That would limit my ability to be myself around them, so I see their frail self-esteem a detriment to others ability to think and speak freely.

Should you lie to bolster their confidence. Or would you simply be undermining them by being dishonest? And how do you know if your own judgement of fashion is better than theirs?
Which option makes you a more supportive friend? — Benj96

I would be asking this of the person that has a self-image problem. How does your low self-esteem affect your friendships in that it seems to limit your friends ability to be themselves. Some people like blunt honesty and some don't. I tend to let those that don't like blunt honesty find new friends. I prefer hanging out with real people that will be honest with me and allow me to be honest with them as I value truth over feelings.

It got me thinking about decision making in general. Can we ever be properly informed? As imperfect beings how do we know when to intervene and when to be passive? Are good intentions enough by themselves? How does one control how their actions impact the world when none of us have a definitive knowledge or right and wrong - a perfect moral compass by which to make decisions — Benj96

Exactly. Right and wrong have to do with our individual goals and not some objective feature of reality that exists apart from our goals. When someone inhibits our goals we see that as unethical. When someone promotes our goals we see that has ethical. It is more difficult to be ethical with someone who has emotional problems - whose goals are inconsistent (I want you to be honest with me, but only if it doesn't hurt my feelings) which makes it difficult to say and do the right things. We call this "walking on egg-shells".

Ansiktsburk

Good intentions might not be enough but they are at least a very good start. To acknowledge difficulties as what they are is the sign of a person not living in some tinseltown.

SatmBopd

↪Benj96

Sincerely ask them if they like it? And if they seem really happy then support them no matter what anyone else thinks? But if they seem like they really want a judgment because they're worried about who will see them like that then there are probably ways to be honest without being completely rude...

Harry Hindu

Sincerely ask them if they like it? And if they seem really happy then support them no matter what anyone else thinks? — SatmBopd

Then they shouldn't be asking what others think if they are only care about with what they think. When someone asks what someone else thinks about something and they don't really want to know what they think then,

Agent Smith

↪Harry Hindu

What isn't...a trap? It's my suspicion that we're all prisoners, held in mental and physical goals, and what we believe to be freedom is nothing more than changing cells and cell mates. Something's better than nothing - the illusion of liberty is better than the reality of jail.

Tom Storm

It got me thinking about decision making in general. Can we ever be properly informed? As imperfect beings how do we know when to intervene and when to be passive? Are good intentions enough by themselves? How does one control how their actions impact the world when none of us have a definitive knowledge or right and wrong - a perfect moral compass by which to make decisions — Benj96

So many questions. I simply trust in my ability to do in good faith the best I can, with what I have available. Experience and good judgement help. No one has a perfect moral compass - whatever that might mean. And I can't control things outside of my own sphere. It's fine by me.

The white lie

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