The ambiguity of some male/female physical features is not so surprising if you consider that the embryo -- formed from male sperm & female egg -- begins its development with basic female forms, and only at a later stage -- after certain hormones are pumped in -- begin to differentiate, with the fundamental human/female organs continuing on, and male organs beginning to specialize in drone functions : to service the queen, so to speak.These organs (fully/incompletely developed) are, I believe, strong indications of ambiguity in sex/gender at a very fundamental level, oui? People getting mixed up about their gender shouldn't come as a surprise given the above. I'd say it'd be more astonishing if homosexuals and transexuals didn't exist. — Agent Smith
We’ve seen where that has gotten us, though. Men are being allowed to compete in women’s sports, or to disrobe in their change rooms, for example. We’re forcing people to use language we would never use otherwise. We’re cutting off people’s genitalia and feeding hormones to children. We are sacrificing much more than truth.
At what point do you say, “no, that’s not a woman”? — NOS4A2
The funny thing is, if a man behaved like a women, for instance, wouldn't you tend to think of them as being feminine rather than masculine, despite what you see on the outside?
Eschewing language conventions because one can seems to me a terrible idea, at least if we are to share a language. The same goes for pronouns. Of course, one can use whatever pronouns one likes, so long as he is willing to accept how jarring and odd it might seem to his interlocutors, but to expect others to conform to such usage is absurd. — NOS4A2
But language conventions change over time, in particular English language conventions. And what you are seeing is not the eschewing of language conventions, but the change of them.
And since that change reflects societal changes happening among younger generations, I think the language changes in this instance will stick.
I also think people who grew up with the old conventions will find the new ones jarring and odd. But newer generations will take up the new conventions, and the circle of life will continue.
So for instance a woman can only pretend to be more rational than emotional and they can't actually be more rational than emotional, going by common stereotypes?
Indipendent? It makes you wonder who comes up with these. — NOS4A2
Anyone can alter his mannerisms, behavior, and dress to appear feminine, but acting can only go so far. — NOS4A2
I'm talking about characteristics like being aggressive or submissive, competitive or cooperative, etc
Excellent. Then you agree that trans people really shouldn't care what others think - especially when they are not around when others are using language to refer to them.Use your own judgment I really don’t care what you think — I like sushi
Gender and sex were always contrived. It’s just that now it is not enforced. — Banno
These are some of the contrived, social characteristics (stereotypes) of what some society means to be a man or a woman. If you've watched women's sports, you will see that they can be just as aggressive and competitive as men. It's not a lack of aggressiveness or competitiveness that are the reasons we separate women's and men's sports. Biology is the reason we separate them.I'm talking about characteristics like being aggressive or submissive, competitive or cooperative, etc — praxis
Yes, there seems to be a difference between being a trans-woman and being a woman. I wonder what that difference is if not biology.There is some interesting confusion about the distinctions between sex and gender, between states of affairs and states of fantasy. — NOS4A2
There is not just ambiguity in the sex but in the species as well. Because we evolved from pre-existing species our embryonic development is similar to other species.The ambiguity of some male/female physical features is not so surprising if you consider that the embryo -- formed from male sperm & female egg -- begins its development with basic female forms, and only at a later stage -- after certain hormones are pumped in -- begin to differentiate, with the fundamental human/female organs continuing on, and male organs beginning to specialize in drone functions : to service the queen, so to speak. — Gnomon
There seems to be distinction between being a man or a woman and acting like one. If you see a person wearing pants do you automatically refer to them as "he" or "sir"? If you have to ask before using those terms then it appears that the way that people act or dress is not a clear indication of what they are. When an white person tries to act like a black person they are ostracized for culture appropriation. How is it not sexual appropriation when a man acts like a woman? Again, we are giving special, undue credit to claims of sex/gender when someone identifies as something that they are not, as opposed to other types of behaviors that copy the likeness of other types of people.The funny thing is, if a man behaved like a women, for instance, wouldn't you tend to think of them as being feminine rather than masculine, despite what you see on the outside? — praxis
When an white person tries to act like a black person they are ostracized for culture appropriation. How is it not sexual appropriation when a man acts like a woman? — Harry Hindu
If you are talking about trans-sexual people, those opposed to non-traditional non-binary gender roles, might say they are "claiming to be something they are not". But the trans- person might retort that society is trying to "force them to be something they are not". Yet, where does the truth lie, in objective observations from outside, or subjective feelings from within?That is clear evidence that you don't take such claims seriously. Why then would we accept, without question, the claims of someone claiming to be something that they are not when it's about sex? What is so special about sex in this regard? — Harry Hindu
Are the behaviors and claims of a schizophrenic person an act? There seems to be clear cases where someone does not believe that their ideas are false yet we still don't believe them. I'm sure you have no quarrels about telling others on this forum that their firmly held beliefs are wrong.When it’s not an act, obviously.
The point that I was trying to make is how we naturally distinguish gender/sex, contrary to what NOS seemed to be suggesting. — praxis
Do the feelings of a delusional person (specifically, somatic delusions) harbor truth? This explanation seems to eradicate delusional states and render them non-existent. Are you saying that there are no such thing as delusional disorders?If you are talking about trans-sexual people, those opposed to non-traditional non-binary gender roles, might say they are "claiming to be something they are not". But the trans- person might retort that society is trying to "force them to be something they are not". Yet, where does the truth lie, in objective observations from outside, or subjective feelings from within? — Gnomon
So are you saying that there is a little homosexuality in all of us - that we are capable of having an intimate relationship with the same sex if we just give it a chance, or be fooled into it as in your example. Would you say this to a gay person - that if a male homosexual man met a a woman dressed as a man and began to fall in love but found out suddenly they have a vagina instead of a penis, then they shouldn't be offended at being misled? I don't know about you, but the moment someone shows that they've been lying to me all along, I am no longer attracted to them. It seems that you'd be okay with being lied to.In the movie, The Crying Game, the protagonist found someone who behaved & appeared to be an attractive woman, but who turned-out, upon closer inspection -- and much to his disgust -- to have an unexpected appendage, that at first seemed to be a deal-breaker. But, he eventually falls in love with him/her, despite his/her congenital deformity. So, was his love the result of false advertising, or of his own realization that it's what's in the heart that matters in a love relationship? — Gnomon
Where is your source? Transgenderism is extremely rare (<1%). Words like "woman" and "man" are useful because a vast majority of humans fall neatly into two groups. Using genitals and gonads alone, more than 99.9% of people fall into two non-overlapping classes and the other traits (chromosomes, hormones, etc.) almost always occur with these. If there was no over-lapping then the terms would not be useful because there would be no distinction to make. By claiming to be a man or a woman, transgenders are making the terms useless in one way and being sexist in another way because they are claiming that behaving a particular way and wearing particular clothes is what makes you a woman or man. Think about if I said that blacks only act and dress a certain way. That would be racist. The hypocrisy is nauseating. Science isn't science when it's been hijacked by governments and used against scientists to make them conform to the current direction the wind is blowing in society. On one hand scientists say delusional disorders exist (like somatic delusions) and on the other they give sexual somatic delusions a pass. Why is that?Unfortunately, the sex/gender game is full of false advertising, from boob-jobs to macho-posturing. So, who is the best judge of a person's sex/gender, the person his/herself, or society & scriptures? Due to the rarity (10%-15% ??) of non-binary examples (out of the closet), most social systems have judged non-conformance to natural/cultural norms to be abnormal & unnatural. But modern science & technologies have demonstrated that mental gender is a continuum, not as clear-cut as the normal physical duality. Since, some citizens feel & believe that their gender does not match their sex, who's to say they are wrong? — Gnomon
Exactly. You're using a single person that had a lot of power, Hitler, imposing his own worldview on everyone else. This is actually a great comparison to what the extremists on the left are doing. If it really were not enforced then we wouldn't have a certain group of people dictating to the majority how words are used based on their feelings. Political laws do not define gender. Science does.Hitler's worldview was neatly black & white, so you were defined as either Aryan or Jew, even if you had one parent of both races. And either Male or Female, even if your body is masculine, but your brain is feminine. Therefore, the question comes down to the old Social versus Individual political views. Who rules in such cases? Would you agree to have political laws define your gender against your personal wishes? I can't say, from personal experience, but that seems to be what the LGBTQ...xyz non-conformists are claiming. — Gnomon
You'll have to do better than this. The same can be said of someone that identifies as being a chicken. It's partly physical and partly mental.What's so special about sex/gender is that it's only partly physical (body), and partly metaphysical (mind). Binary gender is clearly the norm, but Nature sometimes makes mistakes : allowing exceptions to the rule of Reproduction as the Reason for being. For all I know, some animals may be homo-trans-sexuals, but they can't speak for themselves, so they just do do as they feel. As long as humans don't interfere in their private affairs. :smile: — Gnomon
Feminine does not mean female… — I like sushi
No. You are interpreting a trans-person's self-image as a delusion. But, if so, your own self-image would also be a delusion. :wink:Are you saying that there are no such thing as delusional disorders? — Harry Hindu
No. That's irrelevant to what I said. Instead, the implication is that a fertilized egg is not predetermined as male or female. Instead, it is transformed into one gender or another during development. So, copying errors of DNA, or delays in adding certain hormones can result in a fetus with features of both genders. :nerd:So are you saying that there is a little homosexuality in all of us - — Harry Hindu
No. I didn't say that trans-gender-people are 10%-15% of the general population. The reference was to all forms of gender abnormality. And the percentage is just a guess. LGBTQ people prefer the higher numbers, but what's important for us to understand is that gender anomalies are fairly common. If you want sources, just Google "genetic gender anomalies". :cool:Where is your source? Transgenderism is extremely rare (<1%). — Harry Hindu
Unfortunately, political laws do try to define gender. :worry:Political laws do not define gender. Science does — Harry Hindu
There you go again, interpreting a person's self-identification (trans- or chicken-) as a mental disorder. That equation of gender & species is a sign of gender prejudice, such as Hitler advocated -- implying that gays are less than human. Genetic Science indicates that non-binary babies result from natural causes, not from mental disorders. :smile:You'll have to do better than this. The same can be said of someone that identifies as being a chicken. It's partly physical and partly mental. — Harry Hindu
Does this mean that I can identify as a chicken or a rabbit?
This point is worth addressing and not dismissing (in my experience, it often is dismissed when asked).When an white person tries to act like a black person they are ostracized for culture appropriation. How is it not sexual appropriation when a man acts like a woman?
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