The person present is thus de facto morally obligated to help. — spirit-salamander
You are an eyewitness to a crime: A man has robbed a bank, but instead of keeping the money for himself, he donates it to a poor orphanage that can now afford to feed, clothe, and care for its children. You know who committed the crime. If you go to the authorities with the information, there's a good chance the money will be returned to the bank, leaving a lot of kids in need. What do you do?
Ah, that's natural law. How can you prove that there is a categorical imperative other than through rationalization? — chiknsld
Moral dilemmas — chiknsld
You are walking by a woman who needs help so you are obligated to help her? Hmm — chiknsld
Just imagine yourself in the situation that you walk by a person in distress and in urgent need of help. You would feel obligated to help, wouldn't you? Why would that be? In my opinion, Prauss gives a plausible explanation. — spirit-salamander
...difficulties in grasping what needs to be done.) — spirit-salamander
Just imagine yourself in the situation that you walk by a person in distress and in urgent need of help. You would feel obligated to help, wouldn't you? Why would that be? In my opinion, Prauss gives a plausible explanation. — spirit-salamander
Moral dilemmas are proof that a categorical imperative does not exist: — chiknsld
This is a pretty rotten situation because you would have to take the bread from the mouths of little children due to your "categorical imperative" that you say exists. — chiknsld
due to your "categorical imperative" that you say exists. — chiknsld
You are walking by a woman who needs help so you are obligated to help her? Hmm, what if you help her but the next day there is another woman laying on the side of the road needing help? And you help her as well? And the next day there is another woman, and everyday for the rest of your life there will be a woman on the side of the road that needs your help? — chiknsld
Eventually you are going stay inside the house for a day, because you simply do not feel like helping whatever woman will be on the side of the road that day. Are you morally obligated to go outside that day? I mean, you've already helped 20 women for the past 20 days in a row, you have the energy to do it for a 21st day, but you are not morally obligated to do it. — chiknsld
You do not have a moral obligation on the 21st day just as you do not have a moral obligation on the first day. — chiknsld
A moral obligation has to be rationalized. — chiknsld
Let's say that you help this woman 1 billion times (big enough number I hope). — chiknsld
Eventually you are totally not going to care about waking up and helping another woman.
I'm sorry but you can't defeat boredom. You can't defeat "not caring". Therefore on that day you will say, "I have helped 1 billion women, and I just don't care anymore, let someone else help her". You no longer have a moral obligation to help her. — chiknsld
If you respond again with argument of empathy... — chiknsld
Morality and right [...] represent a game that we are factually obliged to play, given the facts of self-knowledge and interpersonality; good and evil are attributes assigned to actions that directly or indirectly concern other human beings — spirit-salamander
Then I know you just want to believe in something and it's not about figuring out the truth. In which case I will say, whatever you want to believe is right! — chiknsld
If you choose to act out your boredom when someone is in need, and therefore do not help, then that is an immoral, evil act or omission. — spirit-salamander
The imperative I am talking about would "demand" that the money go back to the bank and that the children be saved from starvation. Both. — spirit-salamander
The question is, of course, legitimate as to who is now called upon to help the children. — spirit-salamander
You cannot deny that imperatives exist in general. If I ask you to go for a walk or whatnot, I have created an imperative addressed to you. You won't deny that, right? — spirit-salamander
This is not yet a challenge to Prauss' ethics. After all, it's enough if I always call the ambulance or emergency services, and that's no big deal. — spirit-salamander
Why should I be obliged to leave my house the next day? Why should I assume that another person needs help? There are no obligations. I do not see the objection. There would have to be, as I already mentioned, a reason that again and again people are in need. I would have to counteract this reason, as good as I can and as far as the possibilities are given to me therefore. — spirit-salamander
This is not correct. I have to know that someone is in need, and that was the case the first day I left the house. But why should I assume that on the 21st day I have to leave the house to help. That people were in need was a fortuitous and random circumstance. — spirit-salamander
I don't know what you mean exactly by rationalization. — spirit-salamander
The ethics I start from do not take into account feelings such as caring and boredom. It is only a matter of bare duties. — spirit-salamander
And if it is certain that there are always people in need, then they cannot demand that I sacrifice myself for them like a saint and lay down my life for them. Because holiness goes beyond what Prauss understands by morality. — spirit-salamander
If you choose to act out your boredom when someone is in need, and therefore do not help, then that is an immoral, evil act or omission. — spirit-salamander
This is an inaccuracy on my part. For Prauss, feelings such as empathy play only a subordinate role in ethics: — spirit-salamander
Hmm, no I honestly do not see how this is the same as a moral obligation existing objectively. — chiknsld
I thought the premise was that no one else could help, you have to help her. Basic stuff. Get down on your knees, pick her up. Bring her to the hospital or wait for an ambulance with her. Show empathy towards her, console her, etc. The basic stuff. Not just make a phone call and go about your day. Again, you might just want to let the hospital know this will be occurring on a daily basis. — chiknsld
It means that your premises are subjective. Wherever you choose you will subjectively input conveniences, thus moving the goalposts. Rationalization is never-ending. Which again, is perfectly fine just don't expect to ever have the work published in an soft sciences journal. — chiknsld
And if it is certain that there are always people in need, then they cannot demand that I sacrifice myself for them like a saint and lay down my life for them. Because holiness goes beyond what Prauss understands by morality.
— spirit-salamander
Exactly! That has been my entire point! — chiknsld
To appreciate Prauss' idea, one must acknowledge the Kantian idea of man as an end in himself. — spirit-salamander
Would you admit that Prauss is at least a scintilla more convincing here than Kant? Or what do you think of Kant's idea of the universalizability of maxims as a moral criterion? — spirit-salamander
I think the idea is that you have to help to the best of your ability. There is a personal assessment where self-deception must be avoided. So to the best of our knowledge and conscience. And a phone call may be the only sensible thing to do. — spirit-salamander
For Prauss, it's all about the very rough and simple basic idea for the time being. You have, I think, complicated the matter, and so I don't know exactly how to respond to that. But anyway, thanks for your participation in the discussion. It seems that only a few people are interested in it so far. — spirit-salamander
To avoid misunderstanding. I mean this, that one literally dies for the other, as in martyrdom. Because in a certain sense, one certainly has to sacrifice something of oneself with Prauss. Namely, your own lifetime. — spirit-salamander
What do you think makes it different from "natural law"? — chiknsld
How do you decide what is worth the sacrificing of your own life for? Certainly you would first have to care about other people. If you did not care about other people then how could a categorical imperative apply to you? Would that just make the person evil? — chiknsld
That is a good question. To answer it, I would have to read Prauss in more detail. As far as I know, Prauss says that one cannot derive an ought from a natural (static somatic or physical etc.) being. But one can do this from a certain mental being. Nature is, for Prauss the empirical, and the mental would be something like a non-empirical apriori given dynamic "culture". — spirit-salamander
Prauss wants to say, I think, that morality is not anchored in unconscious nature, but is a (potential) positing of reflective consciousness, which nevertheless has an objective validity... — spirit-salamander
...because the moral scheme: only as means, both as means and as end, and only as end is logical and unambiguous. — spirit-salamander
But perhaps these are all mere semantic stipulations and one could therefore speak of a kind of natural law, though Prauss would probably prefer the term mental law. — spirit-salamander
But what about a mental or psychological "injury" that weighs heavily on one, such as a nervous breakdown, trauma, or depression? — spirit-salamander
Nevertheless, of all ethical theories I know so far, Prauss's is, in my opinion, the best out there, because, above all, the normativity necessary for ethics is derived most plausibly. — spirit-salamander
So Prauss is a dualist. — chiknsld
Now what I would like a better understanding of, is how do you treat other people as an end without sacrificing for basically your entire life? You mentioned earlier that his ethics would require pretty much just that -a lifelong sacrificing. — chiknsld
And so, again, if one does not care or for lack of a better word, one is just "lazy" and does not feel like devoting such effort to the cause, does that make the person "evil"? — chiknsld
And how are we defining evil here? Simply that they do not feel like doing something? — chiknsld
Surely being lazy cannot make you evil right? — chiknsld
What if a person wants to commit suicide? Are they evil for not staying alive to help someone else? — chiknsld
What if they are on their deathbed? Should they be setting their priorities to try to live and help others at the same time? — chiknsld
Thus, Prauss is obliged to subscribe to two further claims: in addition to the claim that there is no morality possible between persons who are not in need, there is no morality possible between persons in need, since they have nothing to offer — spirit-salamander
Every single person on this planet needs help. — chiknsld
Okay, but what are you searching for? An ethics that is universal or an ethics that only applies to humans? Or I should say, do you think that a human ethics can be universal? — chiknsld
My initial point was that he cannot prove any of this, but now I see that he would not care about proving this in the first place. — chiknsld
Which ethical theory do you find most plausible, even if you are not completely convinced of it? — spirit-salamander
Aristotle's virtues modify behavior directly, whereas Kant's virtues modify behavior indirectly by creating moral feeling which, in turn, represses the temptations of the natural inclination.
Not a Cartesian Dualist. Rather something like a property dualist, or Aristotelian form-matter dualism. Here is what Prauss thinks about this, though the word subject could be swapped with the dynamic mental (Stream of Consciousness): — spirit-salamander
"The subject is an entity and yet not a “res . . . ,” because it is the complete dynamism of that substrate-less absolute change. “. . . extensa” is the entity of the subject only as “. . . temporaliter extensa,” which Descartes did not take into consideration. “. . . extensa” to him means directly “. . . spatialiter extensa,” and with that immediately “res spatialiter extensa” as well. And precisely in that is the reason that a “res . . .” cannot be comprehensible as “. . . cogitans.” However, as one that is only “. . . temporaliter extensa,” an entity can perhaps still be comprehensible as a “. . . temporaliter extensa cogitans” as well. As such, this entity could be related to a “res spatialiter extensa” as the body of a subject in a way in which, according to Aristotle, the anima behaves toward the corpus: as forma corporis. As an entity of time it would then be precisely the form of motion of a body. For as the subject in a form of one, namely, its own body, the subject would be exactly that which through itself as that completely special type of constant motion would place its body in motion or at rest: already as a cognizing, and thus first and truly as an acting subject." (Gerold Prauss - The Problem of Time in Kant)
Basically, Prauss is a transcendental idealist in the sense of Kant. But that would lead too far here. — spirit-salamander
According to Prauss, you are obligated despite laziness. You must not make your laziness as a driving force the goal of your intention. To live out laziness would indeed be evil according to this ethical system. I think here's where you're disagreeing. Prauss stands on the shoulders of Kant with his ethics of duty (with the corresponding connection and hierarchy of feeling and will). And you have to find this ethics halfway convincing. — spirit-salamander
Evil = Not doing in this case
Evil = Not Feeling to do
It is only about the actions and deeds or inaction and neglect: Not about feelings. — spirit-salamander
Why? Because the person is an end in itself. You intrinsically want to do justice to ends in themselves. — spirit-salamander
there is no morality possible between persons in need, since they have nothing to offer — spirit-salamander
An ethics that is universal. Self-knowledge is the highest thing a living being can be capable of, and this ability makes ethics and morality possible. — spirit-salamander
Prauss definitely has the claim to support every step in his ethics argumentatively, i.e. to really derive everything instead of just giving mere assertions and posits. Kant, for example, simply postulates a moral ought. Prauss explains how such an ought comes about.
I admit that one can have reservations about Prauss. It is best to compare him with another ethical system, with any one, and so you may see his strength. In the end, I agree with Schopenhauer: "Preaching morals is easy, grounding morals hard". Personally, I still find Prauss' grounding the most successful — spirit-salamander
I actually completely disagree with Kant's deontological ethics and take the completely opposite side with Aristotle's teleological ethics. — chiknsld
Aristotle's ethics are not teleological. Sometimes called virtue ethics, it is just about better ways to act. It is empirical or observable in that we look at other people who seem happy and model their behaviors.
Greedy, petty, people like Trump are not happy and power mad. — Jackson
Aristotle is commonly considered the inventor of teleology, although the precise term originated in the eighteenth century. But if teleology means the use of ends or goals in natural science, then Aristotle was rather a critical innovator of teleological explanation.
Consequences are all that matter to me, not intention or internal duty. — chiknsld
good and evil are attributes assigned to actions that directly or indirectly concern other human beings and are evaluated in light of their impact upon the lifetime of these human beings and, hence, morality and right do not dwell within our internal maxims or intentions. — spirit-salamander
Human will is not auto-referential but by essence directed to the success (and not to the failure) of the actions in which it is implicated. Due to this intentionality, good and evil are attributes we ascribe to actions, insofar as they respect the normativity (whatever its kind might be) that the agent has adopted and thereby freely ‘incorporated’ as his actual incentive (759). — spirit-salamander
If one replaces being with will-to-live, he easily concludes that this synthesis allows for three modalities of action: “only life-to-take”, “not only life-to-take but also life-to-give”, and “only life-to-give” (1099). And if one further substitutes time for life (by which Prauss means Geistesleben), he will realize why these three modalities are not susceptible to any quantitative approach, since life-time can neither be augmented nor be re-gained and exchanged in any possible way, assuming that time is adequately apprehended as life-time [...]. Precisely because lifetime resists any quantitative approach, good and evil are categories proper to morality and right; that is to say, they are independent of any reference to goals evaluated according to the categories of utility. Hence, to ground morality and right on mere facts by emphasizing their formal (transcendental) implications is tantamount to resisting utilitarianism. — spirit-salamander
take the completely opposite side with Aristotle's teleological ethics. — chiknsld
Ah, you are saying that kinship or commonality creates an "ought". It's teamwork. — chiknsld
gotcha — chiknsld
Okay but all suffering is not equal. Some people think they are always in pain or suffering and their life is considerably better than other people who are suffering terribly but make sure to try and be happy and make the best out of life. — chiknsld
That's an ethics about love! :heart: — chiknsld
How did you find out about him? I see most of his books are in German? — chiknsld
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