God as ur-parent

hypericin

In the universe of a child, the parents lie squarely in the center. They are God and Satan, alpha and omega. They are the law, they giveth and they taketh away. They anoint with the benediction of Good Child, and the next day Wicked Child is cast into Hades.

But there comes a time, always, when these Gods fall like meteors from the sky, to crash in a crater of mundanity. These Gods are human, all too human, utterly fallible, utterly nondivine. The child's worldview crashes into tatters, because it was merely the child's delusion, the tapestry becomes stretched and torn until it must crumble into dust.

There is a certain kind of mindset which finds this new universe not exhilarating, but a hollow arena of misery and emptiness. I call this mindset conservative: it rejects the new world, unadorned by parental Gods, as malignant, as nihilistic. The void must be filled: they fill it with The Parent, but taken to the logical extreme: the parent of all parents, which undergirds all meaning and all judgement until the end of time.

God and Gods fill such a vast, and largely unexamined, need, that they will never go away. Their services will always be required, by some.

T Clark

But there comes a time, always, when these Gods fall like meteors from the sky, to crash in a crater of mundanity. These Gods are human, all too human, utterly fallible, utterly nondivine. The child's worldview crashes into tatters, because it was merely the child's delusion, the tapestry becomes stretched and torn until it must crumble into dust. — hypericin

I think it's just the opposite. A childhood with good parents - not exceptional, just good enough - teaches children that the world is understandable and that they belong here. It gets built into them and provides the foundation for their lives. Of course, all sorts of things can go wrong - bad parents, parents death, war. That foundation can be damaged or may never form. I don't think my children ever thought my wife and I were like gods. They did think we could protect them, were interested in them, and cared for them. Turns out my family was lucky - we could, we were, and we did.

God and Gods fill such a vast, and largely unexamined, need, that they will never go away. Their services will always be required, by some. — hypericin

This seems like an attempt to undermine belief in God by explaining it away as a psychological foible. I don't see that as a valid argument.

Hanover

↪hypericin

This Freudian sounding description might be autobiographical and true to your experience, but it doesn't ring true to mine or my children.

The problem with this sort of armchair analysis is just that, that it is theorized and then verified without any investigation beyond sorting through your own thoughts.

Agent Smith

Among the Sancta Trinitas, though we pray more often to The Father and The Son, it is the Helper (The Holy Spirit) we actually need - to tide us over difficult times as it were. After all, Prayer is just us screaming "Help (me)!!!" Odd that!

Jackson

There is a certain kind of mindset which finds this new universe not exhilarating, but a hollow arena of misery and emptiness. I call this mindset conservative: it rejects the new world, unadorned by parental Gods, as malignant, as nihilistic. The void must be filled: they fill it with The Parent, but taken to the logical extreme: the parent of all parents, which undergirds all meaning and all judgement until the end of time. — hypericin

That is a good description.

Jackson

This seems like an attempt to undermine belief in God by explaining it away as a psychological foible. I don't see that as a valid argument. — Clarky

I see it as valid.

T Clark

I see it as valid. — Jackson

You’re wrong.

Jackson

You’re wrong. — Clarky

Good to know, thank you.

Agent Smith

You’re wrong. — Clarky

Good to know, thank you. — Jackson

:snicker:

Noble Dust

There is a certain kind of mindset which finds this new universe not exhilarating — hypericin

How would anyone find their "God's falling like meteors from the sky" exhilarating? You're describing a complete paradigm shift in which the universe is no longer safe but rather alien. It's total existential crisis. As @Hanover mentioned, the whole thing smacks of personal projection, a rationalization of a personal experience.

Jackson

How would anyone find their "God's falling like meteors from the sky" exhilarating? You're describing a complete paradigm shift in which the universe is no longer safe but rather alien. It's total existential crisis. As Hanover mentioned, the whole thing smacks of personal projection, a rationalization of a personal experience. — Noble Dust

Not really. It is the story of the Garden of Eden and the Fall.

Noble Dust

↪Jackson

Not really.

Jackson

↪Noble Dust

Goodnight.

Noble Dust

↪Jackson

Give thoughtful, substantive responses and I'll be happy to have a conversation.

T Clark

Good to know, thank you. — Jackson

:up:

Agent Smith

Goodnight. — Jackson

Sweet dreams!

hypericin

↪Hanover

Which part doesn't ring true? If it's the religion, of course this is totally speculation. But if it's the godlike elemental primacy of parents in early childhood, then it's true, I thought this was shared experience. I can't say I've discussed it much, but I've seen the notion several times in literature.

hypericin

It's total existential crisis. — Noble Dust

It's a crisis, which is fearful, but at the same time you get to experience the universe stripped of false gods, which is exhilarating.

T Clark

But if it's the godlike elemental primacy of parents in early childhood, then it's true, I thought this was shared experience. I can't say I've discussed it much, but I've seen the notion several times in literature. — hypericin

No. It's not true. Clearly this is not a shared experience. "Seeing the notion several times in literature" does not constitute evidence.

Jackson

But if it's the godlike elemental primacy of parents in early childhood, then it's true, I thought this was shared experience. — hypericin

Can you explain more what you're referring to? So far the discussion is interesting but a bit vague.

Paine

It's a crisis, which is fearful, but at the same time you get to experience the universe stripped of false gods, which is exhilarating. — hypericin

That well describes my experience as a parent. A sharp reduction of arrogance. There is still something to keep between generations.

Hanover

But if it's the godlike elemental primacy of parents in early childhood, then it's true, I thought this was shared experience. — hypericin

To the extent God is portrayed in an anthropomorphic way, and especially in a paternalistic way (as in God the father), there is a parallel between parents and God. How far individual families extend that metaphor would vary by family, but it's not a universal experience to have parents that present themselves as absolute infallible entities. I never had the experience and I never thought of my parents as occupying a superhuman role.

Again, this isn't to deny your experience. You might have had parents that were placed upon a godly pedestal only to be disillusioned when you learned otherwise, but that says more about your upbringing than it does about fundamental human family structures.

Jackson

You might have had parents that were placed upon a godly pedestal only to be disillusioned when you learned otherwise, but that says more about your upbringing than it does about fundamental human family structures. — Hanover

I did not read his comment that way. The story of the Garden of Eden is based on the idea that God (the father; the authority) punished humans (children) for being disobedient. The lesson is we should obey God, regardless of how good our parents are.

hypericin

↪Hanover

Not put on a pedestal. However, they were the center of my universe, to a degree that was strongerthe younger I was.

Forget the emotional side. Factually, the parallel between God and parents is far stronger than you suggest. Both are givers of life. Both provide sustainance. Both decide right and wrong. Both reward virtue, and punish misdeeds. Both are turned to when in distress, and for guidance. Both are to be obeyed, above all others.

These godly features of parents are not idiosyncratic to my upbringing. Gods are parents taken to an abstract ideal.

I don't want to suggest that this process of disillusionment and subsequent turn to religion is recapitulated in every religious individual. Rather, the centrality of parents to the young is a feature of our culture, and religion is a collective response to the inevitable disillusionment this leads to.

↪Jackson

Does this help explain?

Hanover

I did not read his comment that way. The story of the Garden of Eden is based on the idea that God (the father; the authority) punished humans (children) for being disobedient. The lesson is we should obey God, regardless of how good our parents are. — Jackson

I don't see the Garden of Eden mentioned in the OP. Nowhere in the story of Eden does it talk about parents and the duties owed to them. The commandment related to parents (which occurs much later) states you should "honor" your parents, which does not mean to obey, and it actually doesn't even mean to love.

I'd also disagree with you that the Bible is written to mean you are not to challenge the authority of God (or, by extrapolation, one's parents). There are plenty of instances where the authority of God is challenged by humans and even instances where he relents after being challenged.

I'm just pointing out that your biblical analysis is highly interpretative and not bound by the text.

Jackson

I'm just pointing out that your biblical analysis is highly interpretative and not bound by the text. — Hanover

I probably should not comment on this thread.

Jackson

Does this help explain? — hypericin

I am in full agreement with you.

T Clark

Forget the emotional side. Factually, the parallel between God and parents is far stronger than you suggest. Both are givers of life. Both provide sustainance. Both decide right and wrong. Both reward virtue, and punish misdeeds. Both are turned to when in distress, and for guidance. Both are to be obeyed, above all others.

These godly features of parents are not idiosyncratic to my upbringing. Gods are parents taken to an abstract ideal. — hypericin

I don't mind making a metaphorical connection between God and parents, but you've made a stronger argument than that:

There is a certain kind of mindset which finds this new universe not exhilarating, but a hollow arena of misery and emptiness. I call this mindset conservative: it rejects the new world, unadorned by parental Gods, as malignant, as nihilistic. The void must be filled: they fill it with The Parent, but taken to the logical extreme: the parent of all parents, which undergirds all meaning and all judgement until the end of time. — hypericin

This implies that religion developed historically as a response to our disappointment with our parents. You've used that to undermine the credibility of those who believe in God. That's what I object to.

hypericin

This implies that religion developed historically as a response to our disappointment with our parents. You've used that to undermine the credibility of those who believe in God. — Clarky

I suggest that instead of facing the falsity of parental "gods", the religious invent new ones to take their place.

Either the content of religions are factually true, or they arose historically for one reason or another. Does the reason I suggest impugn your credibility more than any other?

Agent Smith

Well, what is a parent, what is a child? Going by how people think and talk, and words like "puerile", "infantile", "childish", it's quite obvious as to what a child is - mentally immature. Are we, human adults, mature (enough) in the head? Are we the pinnacle of intelligence? That is to say is it possible that there is/are being(s) more intellectually able than us h. sapiens? Thus, god(s) is/are parental with respect to the human race. Hence how gods are so easily swappable with supersmart aliens.

Dermot Griffin

“God and Gods fill such a vast, and largely unexamined, need, that they will never go away. Their services will always be required, by some.”

↪hypericin

You have a definite point here. From the viewpoint of Christian or theistic existentialism, its all about the single human person standing alone before God (and I’m not arguing for a particular concept of God). Kierkegaard says it nicely in his Journals:

“My focus should be on what I do in life, not knowing everything, excluding knowledge on what you do. The is key to find a purpose, whatever it truly is that God wills me to do; it's crucial to find a truth which is true to me, to find the idea which I am willing to live and die for.“

This I think is the whole point of faith in a Power greater than oneself.

God as ur-parent

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