• ToothyMaw
    1.2k
    I think there is something extraordinary to be said for the common soldier - the grunt, the man or woman who through calcification develops attributes that, before training, were not fully awakened - or even called for: they must be killers, they must be able to withstand privation, they must be able to communicate and execute orders concisely and accurately, keep a cool head, and operate with some autonomy.

    None of this is original; we have long known what makes a good grunt. However, the importance of the grunt is sometimes understated. As Napoleon, perhaps the greatest leader ever, said: “Soldiers generally win battles; generals get credit for them.”

    I believe that this is as true a statement as any: a good, flexible grunt in the immediately right place at the right time doing the right thing is worth more than the machinations of any military strategist.

    Every damn time.

    As it turns out, mission type orders, which are the fundamental base for decentralized command, are generally the most effective. They are basically of the form: “figure out how to do this and then get it done.” For more details on this check out this podcast from Jocko Willink.

    This is partially because the grunt often has knowledge that the strategist doesn’t; there is necessarily a discrepancy in time between when the strategist is informed of what is actually going on and when the grunt is faced with a potential dilemma. The grunt, given a degree of flexibility in their orders and mindset, can adapt much more quickly to address a dilemma than the strategist can, and if the grunt is an ideal grunt, they should have a decent chance of making a timely decision.

    Of course, if you have a radio or telaesthesia or something and can contact your leader immediately, that would be ideal, and the grunt could be both in the immediately right place at the right time and be fulfilling explicit orders.

    I differentiate between being in the immediately right place at the right time doing the right thing and fulfilling explicit orders. I find this is useful because these two things are very much different yet advantageous to winning. What the immediately right thing to do is probably easy for the grunt to discern, whereas the full extent to which one fits into a potentially intricate, changing stratagem is not so easy.

    I think the important thing is to maximize the intersection of these two conditions (being in the immediately right place at the right time doing the right thing and fulfilling explicit orders), and this cannot be done without good grunts.

    You might say: but Toothy, being in the immediately right place at the right time doing the right thing is fulfilling explicit orders. This is not quite true; relative to a stratagem fulfilling explicit orders might be being in the right place at the right time doing the right thing, but in a more general sense the immediately right conditions may involve emerging variables, or a developing situation not considered by a stratagem - and no stratagem can address every contingency. So, the Super Grunt conditions - being in the immediately right place at the right time doing the right thing - are more adaptive than any plan set forth by anybody ever.

    This is of course set forth by someone with no real training, so take it with a large heaping of salt.

    edit: changed "good" to "ideal"
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    I'm waiting for someone to go "I signed up just to reply to this post." :snicker:

    I have no military experience and so won't be able to offer anything substantive except this: The word "grunt" is derogatory last I checked, used to refer to foot soldiers who do the real fighting - killing & being prepared to be (mis)treated in the same way is seen as something only blockheads would be willing to do!

    Socrates, I was told, fought in the Peloponnesian war (431 - 404 BC) and was, in the modern sense, a decorated soldier.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k


    I am familiar with many soldiers adopting the label as a badge of honor, not as a derogatory term, and I'm kind of seeking to make the term attractive again.
  • Cuthbert
    1.1k
    Kipling wrote about the disdain for the common soldier and the reliance on him in time of need:

    I went into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
    The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."
    The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
    But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.
    .....................

    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
    But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

    https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_tommy.htm
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k


    Yeah. Great post. Kipling isn't really my favorite for a number of reasons, but that one is good.

    edit: you added a part after I said I liked it, you cad. I guess I still think it's good.
  • Cuthbert
    1.1k
    Yeah - sorry, not good etiquette - I wanted to include the punch-line. Kipling gets a reputation for being a jingoist and imperialist but I think he's seen at work exposing the hypocrisies and injustices of empire. "The White Man's Burden" is easily misjudged by its title.

    Take up the White Man’s burden–
    And reap his old reward:
    The blame of those ye better,
    The hate of those ye guard–

    No illusions about grateful civilised peoples there. Again the punch-line is heavy. Go and make your empire - it will be a failure and everyone will hate you for it. But his irony was twisted by imperialists. Of course, there's an anti-Kipling interpretation too.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k


    I guess his intentions are not obvious - nor do they really matter, as he's not even alive to be derogated. We might as well interpret him as we please, I suppose.
  • jgill
    3.6k
    Interesting to see if anyone who was actually a grunt posts here. I was in the USAF but far from being a grunt, so I can't comment from experience. Helloooo . . . anyone out there in the aether?
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods;
    They kill us for their sport.
    — Gloucester (King Lear)

    We're all pawns in this game between Phanes and Thanatos.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k


    Yeah, I was hoping for the same thing.



    It would be a better comparison if we were given orders and were being shot at, like what might happen to an actual, low-ranking soldier.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    It would be a better comparison if we were given orders and were being shot at, like what might happen to an actual, low-ranking soldierToothyMaw

    True.
  • jgill
    3.6k
    Kinda looks like philosophers tend to avoid military service. Oops! Forgot about Wittgenstein, Descartes, Socrates, Heidegger, Feyerabend, etc. More recently: Jesse Hamilton
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k


    Did anyone imply that there are no soldiers that have become - or are - philosophers? I can easily see many soldiers being or becoming philosophers, as it requires a similar amount of discipline - if reapplied to thinking deeply about things. Jesse Hamilton looks like a cool dude.

    edit: actually, I think many soldiers do think deeply about things, if not the kind of things we associate with academic philosophy.

    double edit: such as duty, how to conduct oneself, what it means to sacrifice, how to readjust to living in society after seeing combat, etc.
  • jgill
    3.6k


    I was thinking of those who post on TPF.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k
    I just thought I'd clarify a few things: when I use the term "grunt", I mean it in the most loving way possible. I think anyone who serves as a low-ranking soldier is worthy of just as much, if not more, respect and veneration as their leaders.

    To any former or current low-ranking soldiers reading this: I have none of the training you have and will likely never have to put myself in harm's way like you may have had to or may have to. The point of this post is to emphasize that what wins wars is the soldiers, like what I quoted Napolean as saying. Sorry if I offended you.

    That all being said, I definitely do believe that trusting in well-trained, competent soldiers is always better than rigidly adhering to the plans of brilliant tacticians - because "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." Or something like that.

    I don't think the future of warfare will be akin to a chess game played by brilliant minds or strong AI. The future of warfare lies in the men and women fighting in the trenches, and victory in investing in the individual warfighter. Of course, brilliant tacticians are always great, and AI handling logistics or something would be instrumental in winning any war. But when it comes down to it, the side that correctly addresses and modifies the vulnerable, human element of warfare is the side that will win.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k
    Furthermore, I would love to hear from anyone who has served in the military. Please tell me if you think I'm wrong or right, or just an idiot. Or just say anything you want, really.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    The tragedy of infantrymen (grunts) is that everybody, including they themselves, knows they're basically expendable cannon fodder and yet people by the hundreds of thousands join the army. Maybe the pay is good, eh mon ami? Not really grunts then, oui?
  • BC
    13.2k
    I have not read Mary Roach's book, Grunt: The Curious Science of Humans at War. Based on reading her other titles, I would expect this to be an interesting exploration of soldiering. (other titles: Bonk: The Curious Coupling of Science and Sex; Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers; Gulp: Adventures on the Alimentary Canal; Packing for Mars: The Curious Science of Life in the Void.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k


    I had to google that to see if you weren't messing with me with those book titles. I'm sure she gives the topic the respect it deserves.



    I would say that they are definitely not treated like expendable cannon fodder by any respectable leader. And if they are being treated as such it is not directly stated. That is antithetical to winning. They might have to put their lives on the line, and everyone is basically expendable in war, including leaders, but cannon fodder? That is generally not the right way to look at it.

    And the grunt is not paid commensurate with what they do - almost always imo. And they are the ones putting their asses on the line.

    If you don't understand what is attractive to many young men and women about picking up a rifle and fighting for their country, which definitely isn't the pay, then you need to get in touch with what it means to not be a nerd, nerd.
  • jgill
    3.6k
    Still no one coming forward saying, "I was a grunt and now I am a philosopher"?

    Mostly grunts came from conscription (draft) and that came to an end in 1973 in the US, in 1972 in Australia, 1960 in the UK, and 1945 in Canada. So anyone here who was drafted would probably be 70 or older.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k


    Did we honestly expect that? Like I'm sure there are men who have been drafted and that served as soldiers that then became philosophers, or were philosophers concurrently, but those two things are very different. I will say this, however: the ability to interpret and execute orders would be right up a philosopher's alley. Verbal reasoning > most other things a soldier that deals with orders needs.
  • BC
    13.2k
    Roach is for real, as you discovered, and has been on the New York Times Best Seller lists. She likes to delve into the gory details.

    Working class men who become soldiers continue to be at the bottom and continue to be exposed to the worst consequences of war. A good example are the soldiers who were heavily exposed to the smoke from appalling filthy, toxic burn pits in Iraq and Afghanistan. Their injuries don't involve holes in their bodies so maybe they don't get the attention they deserve.

    War has always involved severe wounds, but WWI was innovative. First, a lot more concentrated gunfire, long range bombardment, and the use of chlorine and mustard gas. Troops were also concentrated in the trenches. The second innovation was medical: antisepsis measures (based on the relatively new germ theory) led to higher rates of survival. Good field-hospital organization also helped.

    Lindsey Fitzharris' new book, FACEMAKER, is about the developments in plastic surgery that were made during the war. There were many soldiers with head and neck bullet wounds -- eyes shot out, jaws shot off, faces almost entirely destroyed. Surgeons learned how to use autografts, metal, early plastic-type material, wound drainage, fine stitching, and so forth. Before and after photos show that remarkable results could be achieved treating the heavy flow of wounded men.

    Books like Facemaker show how high the price was paid by the soldier. Not all wounds could be repaired nicely. IEDs in Iraq and Afghanistan produced a lot of long-term, but not readily visible, neurological damage from concussions. And then there was Agent Orange, and radiation from other wars.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k


    Yeah, I couldn't hope to express how high the cost many soldiers pay is. I think many of them even have trouble expressing it, which kind of hints towards it being gratuitous and awful. Because gratuitous, awful things are often difficult to express.
  • jgill
    3.6k
    Friedrich Nietzsche was an artillerist in the German army during the Franco-Prussian War.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Well, I suggest that we google for articles that contain study results on motivations for joining the armed forces. That's what a nerd would do, oui monsieur?
  • BC
    13.2k
    The circumstances of signing up for the armed forces helps explain some motivations:

    An intelligent but unskilled youth may find few employment opportunities. Hence, a job.

    An intelligent youth may sign up to receive college education benefits. There are various programs that cover the cost of education (highly inconvenient conditions may apply).

    A youth from a boring backwater may seek adventure in armed forces. "Join the navy, see the world" kind of thing.

    A youth from a jingoistic, crypto-fascist (or maybe not so crypto) family may be able to fulfill family expectations by serving valiantly in the peacetime military. It's not his fault if there is no decent war at the time.

    A youth may feel a need to live in a highly structured, directive environment. One could become a monk but most men will find being a grunt more interesting.

    "One of the most common reasons people join the military is because they feel drawn to serving their country. This sense of duty, or a “calling to service,” can arise from patriotic family values or the desire to do something meaningful."
  • BC
    13.2k
    25 reasons to join the military, according to Indeed, the personnel people:

    1. To serve your country
    2. To learn new skills or a trade
    3. To find purpose
    4. To travel
    5. To get physically fit [What? Are there no gyms?]
    6. To pay for college
    7. To save money [What? Something other than thrift?]
    8. To have adventure
    9. To have medical benefits
    10. To enjoy job stability
    11. To retire early [in time to start a second career]
    12. To gain experience
    13. To continue family tradition
    14. To find an alternative to college
    15. To earn respect
    16. To form friendships [What? No one liked you in civilian life?]
    17. To receive housing, stipend or loan
    18. To learn discipline
    19. To gain perspective [WTF does that mean?]
    20. To meet challenges
    21. To earn military perks
    22. To get paid vacation days [What? must be an easier way]
    23. To get help starting a business
    24. To find a positive environment
    25. To showcase leadership abilities

  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    So, being a grunt (expendable) is the price some young men & women are willing to pay in order to see their dreams, some of which you listed in your post, come true! Quite a gamble wouldn't you say?

    It's like becoming a doctor while hoping no one falls ill.
  • jgill
    3.6k
    Still no one coming forward saying, "I was a grunt and now I am a philosopher"?jgill

    Did we honestly expect that?ToothyMaw

    I was being optimistic. Of the 15,000 or so who have joined the site perhaps a few would read the thread and post up.
  • BC
    13.2k
    Quite a gamble wouldn't you say?Agent Smith

    Joining the military is a HUGE gamble, really in the same way taking any job is a gamble, only much much more so.

    True, one might join up in a peaceful June and by September we could be at war with [fill in blank]. Even if we don't throw a war during one's years in the military, there's still lots of opportunities to be disappointed, ill-served, have one's time wasted, screwed over, etc. etc. etc.

    I was a conscientious objector (in the 1960s). Even so, any organization with such vast resources at its disposal has a certain amount of charm.
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