Good times as such tend to end binge-party-style where it concerns the very young as young people are less limited by a sense of responsibility — Seeker

But this was not about the very young.

especially if provided 'exemplary behavior' of someone as succesful as the PM. — Seeker

Except this was not provided as exemplary behavior. It was an unauthorized video of people dancing at private party. Do you really think very young people will start drinking and dancing because the PM does?

You seem to be making this about me, — Seeker

I am not making it about you, I am making it about what you have said.

my personal opinion is of no value — Seeker

And yet you continue to make them public.

quote="Seeker;732450"]I am merely stating facts rather than going on a crusade.[/quote]

You are not stating facts, you are imagining what the consequences of seeing Marin singing and dancing will be on very young people. It is good to know that you are not going on a crusade, but, unfortunately, others are

The assumption by many seems to be 'politics is sober and serious, please don't have a life too.' — Tom Storm

I wonder who else is covered under this assumption, doctors, lawyers, Sunday school teachers?

The assumption by many seems to be 'politics is sober and serious, please don't have a life too.' — Tom Storm

I wonder who else is covered under this assumption, doctors, lawyers, Sunday school teachers? — Fooloso4

No, because those professionals tend to work in private institutions. They are paid by ownership fees or they are employed workers.
But a politician is a public representative of a state.. She is not an average lawyer or teacher she is de the damn Prime Minister of a country...

But a politician is a public representative of a state — javi2541997

Right, a representative of the

interests

of the state. How is she doing in that regard?

But a politician is a public representative of a state.. She is not an average lawyer or teacher she is de the damn Prime Minister of a country... — javi2541997

:100:

How is she doing in that regard? — Fooloso4

We can be agree here in the fact that she is actually a good politician. But I personally think you are mixing some points. Being an "efficient" politician doesn't allow you to be immature or having private parties.
As I said previously: a public representative should not mixed their responsibility with private whims. I still think we have to expect from them more rectitude. If she doesn't want to be so "booooring" don't be a politician then

Yes, seppuku is the only way in the face of her disgrace.

seppuku — Fooloso4

Nobody understands such honourable act. We live in another era. She doesn't fit in the way of Bushido. But it is ok and I respect it. Anyone is not able to maintain such level of loyalty and integrity.

HAHAHAAAA!

Four pages already of our PM. :razz:

But actually it's pretty crazy that a highly succesful woman, who also happens to dance well, is forced for political reasons to take a drugtest. — Benkei

Well, Sanna basicallty jumped to this immediately. I think only some opposition politician tweeted that she should take one. And that's it. The media wasn't asking for it. And she took a pee test, which umm...shows if you have had drugs during the couple of days.

Well, as nearly unavoidable (as a Finn) I've seen the videos...and the discussion here. The things that made this fuzz about drugs was because:

a) someone in video referred themselves who party as "jauhojengi", flour-gang which is urban slang for people who use cocaine etc instead of alcohol

b) in a video there seems an absence of alcohol bottles and in one shot in the kitchen shows a white stripe on the table (which of course could be everything).

c) the videos were shot before they actually went out in two clubs and partied until five.

d) this isn't the ONLY time these partying videos have gotten out. I think last year was already was video of Sanna partying with artists (many the same group).

I think the general consensus is that the whole debacle just questions her judgement about the friends she has. And of course, if it would be a male PM, however good looking, he would be out. I think just a photo of a male intimately dancing with a female singer when his wife and daughter are at home would be enough. Nobody would believe the "we're just friends" answer.

(Some of Sanna's friends using the prime ministers residence information room to get cool photos. She first tried to say the pictures were taken at the toilet. Notice the same "Finland" sign and Sanna himself has acknowledged that they are genuine, which she regrets.)



Well, she wanted to "shake the institution of the prime minister". That she definately has done. :snicker:

But now we are here in the phase where she apologizes with nearly breaking up in tears ...and telling that Ukrainians have it worse. Which is true. And it's the Ukrainian day of independence, I think.

The assumption by many seems to be 'politics is sober and serious, please don't have a life too.'
— Tom Storm

I wonder who else is covered under this assumption, doctors, lawyers, Sunday school teachers?
— Fooloso4

No, because those professionals tend to work in private institutions. They are paid by ownership fees or they are employed workers. — javi2541997

As a school teacher of 30+ years and before that, as a time served journeyman painter & decorator.
I can confirm that my employers, parents of pupils, and local authority representitives, took a much dimmer view of a drunk, singing and dancing secondary school teacher than the people in general took when they saw a drunk, singing and dancing painter and decorator.

this isn't the ONLY time these partying videos have gotten out. I think last year was already was video of Sanna partying with artists (many the same group). — ssu

Wow she is recidivist... what a totally lost of hope towards her.

Some of Sanna's friends using the prime ministers residence information room to get cool photos. She first tried to say the pictures were taken at the toilet. Notice the same "Finland" sign and Sanna himself has acknowledged that they are genuine, which she regrets.) — ssu

Immature people having fun with Immature girl. Superb. If her "friends" get to easily to prime ministers residence... how can we know if a spy or enemy doesn't have the same chances?

But now we are here in the phase where she apologizes with nearly breaking up in tears ...and telling that Ukrainians have it worse. — ssu

Demagogy.

About time you showed up :wink: . Her image has been severely undermined and so, I think she's effectively finished. And she probably knows that. Hence the tears. It's not a moral issue, and nothing she did is inconsistent with being a top class PM. It's just the image. The "Prime Minister" is that thing in our head we consider Prime-Ministerish and for most people that has certain boundaries. We don't want the human getting in the way. We'd rather brush that under the carpet. Her sin was letting her human out there in full HD vid, so we can't. Ergo, she's toast imo, though she'll probably limp on for a while.

Maybe. But given what has been going on elsewhere, it may be that standards and expectations are changing. Trump has certainly done his part to lower the bar.

Ergo, she's toast imo, though she'll probably limp on for a while. — Baden

As if being the PM of Finland is such a pinnacle of success that losing that position will mean ruin. She's now an international celebrity, who will no doubt figure out how to cash in on all this.

We ask what would happen if she were a middle aged man or whatever. Maybe we could muster up the same sanctimonious outrage, but there'd still be a collective yawn. No one wants to see a middle age man grind into another middle aged man. They want to see her doing all that she's been doing. That interest isn't going to end just because she might choose another track.

As if being the PM of Finland is such a pinnacle of success that losing that position will mean ruin. — Hanover

It ain't. I meant as PM.

We ask what would happen if she were a middle aged man or whatever. Maybe we could muster up the same sanctimonious outrage, but there'd still be a collective yawn. No one wants to see a middle age man grind into another middle aged man. They want to see her doing all that she's been doing. That interest isn't going to end just because she might choose another track. — Hanover

My interest began and ended pretty quickly. You seem a bit more entranced. But her future life as your favourite celebrity is not what I was talking about.

About time you showed up :wink: . Her image has been severely undermined and so, I think she's effectively finished. And she probably knows that. Hence the tears. It's not a moral issue, and nothing she did is inconsistent with being a top class PM. It's just the image. The "Prime Minister" is that thing in our head we consider Prime-Ministerish and for most people that has certain boundaries. We don't want the human getting in the way. We'd rather brush that under the carpet. Her sin was letting her human out there in full HD vid, so we can't. Ergo, she's toast imo, though she'll probably limp on for a while. — Baden

I think you are correct.

Anyway, elections are held in 2nd of April next year and likely this administration will limp forward until there. I don't think that she will resign before (I may be wrong, of course). The social democrats got a breath of fresh air with the now 36-year old Sanna (as the average age of the party members is over 70), Yet high inflation, the likely economic downturn and the oncoming energy crisis will likely mean that the conservatives/True Finns may possibly win. (Actually the conservatives lost only because a popular member of parliament created a offshoot party once he didn't get a top ministerial post when the party was in power. Basically something similar to when Ross Perot undermined Bush the elder and Clinton got into power.)

But I have to say that she had been a smart politician, before choosing the wrong "in"-crowd of assholes among whom to party with. She was firm on issues like NATO membership and COVID-restrictions once the strong majority of the people felt the same way. She changed her views quick enough to take on the role of being in command. Above all, all those crappy "lose-or-lose more" issues that any administration has to face and cannot win, suddenly an another minister would to take the hotseat and she wouldn't be anywhere around to take responsibility. That tactic actually worked well: if the shit stuff is commented by others and you comment on the "good" stuff, things that people agree with, people will have a positive image of you. Until you give it all away some party celebs that live off from instragram fame.

The only issue I really have, and yes, I am indeed old fashioned because of this, is that at least I haven't noticed the PM partying with his husband. Her husband is n ever mentioned in the parties. The males in the partying buddies are just other "friends" of Sanna. But hey, she celebrated their anniversary with her husband so I guess it's OK. An open style marriage I guess. Or then it's a show marriage because some more old fashioned/conservative people here might think a PM should be married and not have out of wedlock children. If your a single mom, then proudly be a single mom.

I just think that if it was an 36-year old male prime minister partying with women celebs and nowhere would be his wife that he has been married two years ago and with whom you have 4 year old daughter with, people wouldn't be so accepting. Usually marriages in which the spouses don't party together won't last.

But anyway, so why did she fuck up so big?

I think that for this once a supermarket cashier (which fits perfectly the social democratic image of rising from an ordinary background), the superstardom she got as this young sexy prime minister simply went to her head. Usually a Finnish prime minister, even if female, doesn't get the limelight as Marin has had now. And things like joining NATO naturally put our country into media focus. Above all, last year when the first partying videos emerged from the prime minister's official residence, her polls did actually go up. Because then it really was just about singing and dancing. And it was a meeting with artists. And naturally pop artists sing and dance. So if the polls went then up, why not simply continue to party!

Trump presented himself as a piece of garbage from the beginning. It's a different dynamic. His whole shtick was "I'm an ignorant fool just like you, Joe Public. Vote for me and validate your own stupidity." So, the fact that Trump is what he pretends to be allows the public to pretend that he is what he's not (worthy of being President). Whereas the fact that Marin is not what she pretended to be doesn't allow the public to pretend that she is what she is (worthy of being PM). It's the conflict between the public and private persona that short-circuits our ability to project our image successfully, not the absolute nature of the image, the acceptability of which is culturally sensitive.

My interest began and ended pretty quickly. You seem a bit more entranced. But her future life as your favourite celebrity is not what I was talking about. — Baden

As if you're not in love too.

It does look like she got complacent and careless with image control. She's paying the price.



How many times you watched that vid, sir. :brow:

Trump presented himself as a piece of garbage from the beginning. — Baden

Some see him that way, others see him as worthy of being president. Of those who regard him as worthy some overlook his flaws. It was common for Christian Evangelists, many of whom regarded him as a savior, to say things like "he is human" and "we are all sinners". Nothing he did mattered as long as he overturned Roe and championed "Christian rights".

Gary Hart's 1984 run for US President came to an abrupt end when it was revealed he was having an extra-marital affair. Standards certainly have changed.

I don't know what the image is that Marin cultivated or the extent to which her image has changed in the eyes of the Finnish people or how much they even care about about what she does in her private life.

My comment was intended to be less about her and more about what people expect of their political leaders. In the past it was easier to keep things out of the public eye. I don't think the behavior of political leaders has changed all that much, it is just that it is far more difficult to maintain the illusion of being a paragon of virtue.

My point was more that a leader's chances of success relate to how they accommodate our projections of that which we are not, but aspire to, either positively or negatively. We recognize implicitly our own lack of power and its source at least partly in our human distance from a consistent ideal—call it our narrative emptiness. Insofar as a politician can fill that vacuum for us, we're satisfied. They do "us" for us. But when they really turn out to be like us, we relate to them less not more because the form of the relation is aspirational. When they fall apart as narrative, so does their usefulness for us. It doesn't matter what the narrative is, that's socially defined; its consistency or otherwise is the psychological issue I'm pointing to.

My point was more that a leader's chances of success relate to how they accommodate our projections of that which we are not, but aspire to, either positively or negatively. — Baden

Maybe for some I guess.

I work around enough people involved in politics that I have no greater expectations of them than anyone else, and they have no greater likelihood of being a role model than anyone else. In fact, while we're psychoanallyzing, much could be said about the curious personality drawn into politics.

At any rate, if you're looking to your politicians for moral direction, maybe it's time to rethink your religion.

(Some of Sanna's friends using the prime ministers residence information room to get cool photos. She first tried to say the pictures were taken at the toilet. Notice the same "Finland" sign and Sanna himself has acknowledged that they are genuine, which she regrets.) — ssu

First I need to point out to everyone how confusing it is to be in Finland until you realise Finn's will use he / she pronouns interchangeably in reference to the same person in the same sentence.

So many stories I'm like: this couple has a really complicated relationship.

Above all, last year when the first partying videos emerged from the prime minister's official residence, her polls did actually go up. Because then it really was just about singing and dancing. — ssu

Basically in complete agreement with your whole analysis.

The issue is really about the video not being "just" dancing. If she was just busting moves, even awkward one's, it would be an endearing video showing she's "just like us".

But the video, how things look and all the details you mention, is not just dancing.

Of course, legal complaints are spurious, but a pretext to just keep talking about the video, make sure everyone sees it a bunch.

As some random reddit poster pointed out, that I unfortunately forget where, there's an older crowd in Finland that frowns upon this sort of dancing and partying. However, there's also a middle-age and younger crowd that doesn't do this kind of partying as either they think it's stupid or they would like to, but don't have that kind of money and friends, and have fomo about it.

Not everyone does this sort of crazy, out of your mind clubbing.

Of course, count me in.

And of course, if it would be a male PM, however good looking, he would be out. I think just a photo of a male intimately dancing with a female singer when his wife and daughter are at home would be enough. Nobody would believe the "we're just friends" answer. — ssu

My woman friends claim it wouldn't even be an issue if it was a male politician. There's a bunch of examples of male politicians getting blackout drunk on official visits and so on, but my counter-point is they weren't Prime Minister, but things like cultural minister (representing Finnish drinking culture).

However, a male getting drunk and frisky at a party I don't think would be automatically interpreted as cheating. Easily have a "boys will be boys" narrative around it, but I do agree the leaving your wife alone with the child to go party would be viewed as classic douche archetype ... but that's not necessarily so damaging politically.

My woman friends claim it wouldn't even be an issue if it was a male politician. — boethius

In Kekkonen's and Koivisto's time yes, but in the 1990's the tabloid press started to be "normal" even in Finland by European standards. For the last thirty years they would go for the jugular when these kind of pictures / videos come out. And now, in our time, the "old media" just has to respond what already has happened as is already discussed in the social media.

Without the social media I think that there would be just these rumours going on that Sanna likes to party without anything been written about it in the media.

There's a bunch of examples of male politicians getting blackout drunk on official visits and so on, but my counter-point is they weren't Prime Minister, but things like cultural minister (representing Finnish drinking culture). — boethius

Many Finnish men have a "personal problem" with alcohol.

The best example of this was Ahti Karjalainen, who made a stellar career starting from being the secretary of President Kekkonen and the Soviets (KGB) wanted him to follow Kekkonen. But alcohol got him. Those times once when on a state official visit in Finland the motorcade suddenly stopped and the reporters jumped out to find out what's happening, nobody took a picture of the intoxicated Finnish foreign minister throwing up next to the car carrying him. So he was put away into the Central bank of Finland. And as an alcoholic, even got fired from there.

However, a male getting drunk and frisky at a party I don't think would be automatically interpreted as cheating. Easily have a "boys will be boys" narrative around it, but I do agree the leaving your wife alone with the child to go party would be viewed as classic douche archetype ... but that's not necessarily so damaging politically. — boethius

I'm not sure just how well that "boys will be boys" thing will go in the post me-too environment. You have to be a Donald Trump: have firm backing from your supporters that think everything you do is great as you irritate the elites and everything bad thrown at you is just fake news.

Sanna's supporters aren't so many as she isn't an anti-establishment populist.

Correct. She can always become a background dancer for Beyonce.

In Kekkonen's and Koivisto's time yes, but in the 1990's the tabloid press started to be "normal" even in Finland by European standards. For the last thirty years they would go for the jugular when these kind of pictures / videos come out. And now, in our time, the "old media" just has to respond what already has happened as is already discussed in the social media. — ssu

Oh yes, I totally agree it would be an issue for a male, especially prime minister, but some woman see it differently. But how bad an issue, and also what would be a comparable situation is difficult to judge.

I'm not sure just how well that "boys will be boys" thing will go in the post me-too environment. — ssu

The power of boys will be boys is fading, but I would not say it is close to impotent.

But I think we are largely in agreement on the issue.

Apparently the PM has now been chastised and pledged an end to partying.

Correct. She can always become a background dancer for Beyonce. — Benkei

Well I can say that if asked to name another Finnish PM, or actually Finnish legislator, or actually Finnish woman, or actually Finnish person other than @ssu, I'd draw a blank. So she has done whatever is necessary to find her way to my computer screen. She needs to take advantage of this 15 minutes of fame.

She needs to take advantage of this 15 minutes of fame. — Hanover

I wasn't aware your attention span was that long. You're improving. :kiss:

Apparently the PM has now been chastised and pledged an end to partying — boethius

Absurd, isn't it? Perhaps now she will get the paparazzi following she deserves for having put Finland on the map again. Fame and notoriety are the same when it comes to getting publicity, as long as they spell her name correctly. Just look at Zelenskiy for an example for how much public awareness can be worth for a country. Otoh, if she were French would anyone bat an eye?