• javi2541997
    5.7k
    You mean seppuku can be committed alone. That I understood as obvious.
    For the individual it is clearly and hopefully a one-off act; it is only a ritual in the socio-cultural sense.
    I was looking at the broader framework; it is/was a Japanese Ritual and then some.
    Amity

    We are both agree in the same point then! :up: :100:
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    I see a ritual as a symbolic gesture.

    Often its an outer appearance meant to convince you of an inner essence.

    It has some parallels with magic tricks, as both are dealing with convincing appearances, but magic tries to convince you of literal occurrences while rituals try to convince you of inner essences.

    I think when there is an essence, the outer symbolic gesture is often unnecessary.

    Sometimes rituals/ceremonies can work like placebos / self fulfilling prophecies.
    Yohan

    Superb! Rituals, looks like, hold a personal meaning - it usually involves a meme-plex that imbues it with significance that's usually an accompaniment of the urge to be part of something bigger (than oneself). There was a time when the world was enough (Alexander the "great"), but now the world is not enough (Elon Musk and his space ambitions). Does Elon Musk perform any rituals we aren't aware of?
  • Amity
    5k
    We are both agree in the same point then!javi2541997

    You might not agree with an add-on to the original post:

    I find the idea and practice of seppuku, honour suicides and killings disturbing to say the least.
    To think it has survived in fantasy role-playing...
    And in modern life within certain religions:
    Amity

    But now I'm off to prepare Sunday lunch, salmon not beef...and not a ritual...!
  • praxis
    6.5k
    And to be clear, I think a ritual may necessarily be social in nature.
    – praxis

    Not necessarily. Seppuku was a samurai ritual used when someone committed a big act of dishonour or disrespect. The act itself was accomplished in the pure loneliness. Most of the people found out what happened whenever they discovered the corpse.
    javi2541997

    In order to be non-social wouldn't a ritual need to be unique and developed by an individual and have no connection to others? Assuming that rituals help to strengthen social bonds, values, norms, and the like, what would the point of a personal ritual be?
  • javi2541997
    5.7k


    what would the point of a personal ritual be?

    The search of a personal journey. I am agree that most of the rituals are social because that's the clue. But in the other hand I wanted to argue some examples where some rituals can be committed individually. Another example could be asceticism. This ritual may withdraw from the world for their practices, but typically adopt a frugal lifestyle, characterised by the renunciation of material possessions and physical pleasures, and also spend time fasting while concentrating on the practice of religion or reflection upon spiritual matters.
    Ascetic lifestyle is associated particularly with monks, nuns, and fakirs in Abrahamic religions, and bhikkhus, munis, sannyasis, vairagis, goswamis, and yogis in Indian religion
  • Amity
    5k
    what would the point of a personal ritual be?

    The search of a personal journey.
    javi2541997

    Or it could be the end of a personal journey ( seppuku) or victims of a so-called 'honour system'.

    Earlier I posted this:

    I find the idea and practice of seppuku, honour suicides and killings disturbing to say the least.
    To think it has survived in fantasy role-playing...
    And in modern life within certain religions:
    — Amity
    Amity

    @javi2541997 given your recent posts extolling the life of a samurai, I wondered whether you would agree with that but received no reply.

    The OP asked about the relationship between ‘Ritual’ with ‘Habit’ and ‘Instinct’.
    I've already posted a little but didn't focus on the religious aspect. Some thoughts:

    Religious rituals create habits of action and thought, which can be absorbed as instinctive attitudes.
    Sometimes good, other times bad. There is usually an adherence to a set of societal values, morals and laws. At least on the face of it.
    We all know about human hypocrisy; affected superiority whilst engaging in 'vice'.

    Even yet, we are ruled by religion. World leaders and their acts or non-acts. The regalia, the medals.
    And so on.
    The Queen's death, the new King, today's funeral...all about ritual, power and its maintenance.
    Enjoy the show but don't be dazzled. The sense (instinct) or habit of entitlement is heavy...as should be the shame of the Duke of York and more. But the basic instinct is to survive.

    God, such titles...to bear...
  • Amity
    5k
    Turned on the TV. Queen's funeral.
    The marching pipe bands are quite an amazing sight and sound.
    The Queen apparently had a ritual of being wakened by a piper playing outside her window, every morning between 9 and 9.15.

    More and more bands to come...army, navy and airforce...
  • javi2541997
    5.7k
    given your recent posts extolling the life of a samurai, I wondered whether you would agree with that but received no reply.Amity

    Sorry, Amity, I forgot to reply to your quote but here is my answer:

    Absolutely. You are right in the fact that seppuku doesn't survive through the centuries. It is another way of suicide and is seen pretty among Japanese society (well, in the Western culture too indeed).
    But I only wanted to share my opinion of how interesting it was in Middle Age Japan the way of samurais acted in terms of loyalty, honour, righteousness, etc... whenever one samurai didn't accomplish any of these requirements he decided to commit seppuku because it was more painful the dishonour than killing oneself.
    Nevertheless, it is true that the period of samurai times was so much different from nowadays. They were used to clan wars and a lot of blood. We evolved in to a complex society where we resolve the disputes with words and debates (a new habit which was born during the XIX century...?

    Yet, it is so drastic seppuku act, we should never forget it. It is an important piece of history that is pretty interesting to consider about. It was an Ancient Ritual and we have to respect it.
  • Amity
    5k
    Yet, it is so drastic seppuku act, we should never forget it. It is an important piece of history that is pretty interesting to consider about. It was an Ancient Ritual and we have to respect it.javi2541997

    However, my point was that it is still being 'played out' in 2022. Fantasy role-playing.
    This kind of ritual still holds an appeal. As do other killings associated with so-called 'honour'.
    I do not respect this at all and find it disturbing that this barbaric way of thinking continues.
    I might add that its source seems to lie more in the dominance of male power.

    They were used to clan wars and a lot of blood. We evolved in to a complex society where we resolve the disputes with words and debates (a new habit which was born during the XIX century...?javi2541997

    I like the question mark.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    I need to think about this whole subject more. Seems like a decade is not enough :D

    Perhaps with my current attempts I will refine my thoughts better soon if I remain focused on this subject alone.

    I am not entirely convinced there is a ‘why’ of doing so. This may sound bizarre but I just have a niggling sense that whatever function/role a Ritual plays in our lives it is essentially a creative force rather than one made of pure intent. In the sense that producing a piece of artwork is an expression of humanity, yet a Ritual is more like an attempt at being a hierophant (the ‘translator’) and just occupying the space of ‘translations’ rather than actively mediating between ‘self’ and ‘world’ … if that makes sense?
  • Amity
    5k

    I am not entirely convinced there is a ‘why’ of doing so. This may sound bizarre but I just have a niggling sense that whatever function/role a Ritual plays in our lives it is essentially a creative force rather than one made of pure intent.I like sushi

    You don't need to be entirely convinced of a general reason for the function/role of Ritual.
    Nor of there being a pure intent or an intent alone.
    My questions of what, where, how and why addressed your specific:

    'I can concoct and perform some ritual personal to me that no one else need ever know about.'
    — I like sushi

    I've since noted an earlier response:
    I am not sure that “rituals” need to have a set purpose either. Maybe it is that some forms of “rituals” are more about exploring purpose and/or imbuing purpose by selecting some segment of time and addressing it by Visualising, Articulating, Acting Out, Analysing or Inventing.I like sushi

    From this, it seems you can indeed have a 'why', a reason or a set intention for a certain form of ritual:
    What : to explore the concept of 'Purpose' or to give yourself purpose.
    When: choose a a regular time to think about 'purpose'. Of concepts, self or life.
    How :
    As stands I have these five items.

    1) Perception : Visualising
    2) Thought : Articulating
    3) Realisation : Acting Out
    4) Reversal : Analysing
    5) Development : Inventing
    I like sushi

    If, as you say, 'Ritual' is 'essentially a creative force', then it is of our own making.
    This includes form, structure, process and intent; including your 'items' 1-5.

    For your particular purpose, the ritual seems to be philosophical practice; a critical thinking process.
    If it is to be of any benefit, it must necessarily involve 'social interaction' or communication.
    A need to think, read, write, connect and share, no?
    The end product: a new understanding or change?
    Your 5) being the synthesis?

    ***

    ... a Ritual is more like an attempt at being a hierophant (the ‘translator’) and just occupying the space of ‘translations’ rather than actively mediating between ‘self’ and ‘world’ … if that makes sense?I like sushi

    :chin:
  • Tate
    1.4k
    Rituals are often meaningless, like shaking hands or throwing a sword into a field to declare war. Is there a ritual that isn't meaningless on its own?
  • javi2541997
    5.7k
    Is there a ritual that isn't meaningless on its own?Tate

    hereditary monarchies and Tanistry
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Rituals can be

    1. Social. Many people perform the same set of what appears to be causally irrelevant actions before/during/after a particular task. Most such rituals tend to be directed towards the supernatural (gods/spirits/demons/etc.). However, those who perform such rituals (erroneously) believe that rituals do have causal import. Being as open-minded as possible, I'd say there's a grain of truth in this.

    2. Individual. Rituals sometimes can be peculiar to a person. These are like empty slots in one's psyche which you can fill up with metaphysical stuff, but on some/most occasions they're left vacant.

    As you can see, there's the ritual and there's the metaphysical doodads that give it a meaning of some kind. What would be really interesting is if a ritual, the specifics of it, correlates with the matching metaphysics.
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