• ernestm
    1k
    The difficulty in understanding Wittgenstein ('W') is threefold. First, the easiest way to understand him these days is to start at end of his thought and work backwards. Second, W himself had very little to say on metaphysics and theories of meaning, which has led to totally contrary consequences by other thinkers building on his ideas. And third, which is the point people usually start at, is that he started with a very different conception, then changed his mind half way through his life and recast his earlier thought in a new light.

    One of the last things W wrote about was color. Realists just think of color as a sense experience, which is physically described in terms of certain electromagnetic wavelengths, and any dispute is resolved by refining the boundary conditions on allowable mixes of wavebands. On the other hand, the significance of color is social too. For example, in the USA red frequently has the connotation of danger or 'stop.' In China, red is the color of a party or parade, and therefore cheerful instead. But W instead took a middle position on it, and instead concentrated on how two people reach an agreement on what the color red might be. With regards to whether objects in the world are red or not, he concluded, from the nature of how agreements are reached, the true nature of reality can only be known 'mystically.' MANY people have a problem with that, so the next step is to consider how W reached that conclusion.

    During W's life, the most dominant view of language was that it is 'descriptive.' An 'apple,' for example, is known to us by a description of a real-world object that exists in our minds. So when we want to know if it is true that there is an apple is red, we 'look up' the descriptions of 'apple' and 'red' in our minds, then we look at the real world to find the apple and see if its color corresponds with our mental description of red. This approach, popularized by Russell and Whitehead, was immensely successful in creating new approaches to representing language symbolically, and so this 'theory of descriptions' became rather accepted as the way language correlates with reality.

    W really did not like the theory of descriptions at all, because to him, the resulting symbolic language of propositional logic creates an artificial and unreal perspective on the nature of 'natural language.' W instead viewed language as a 'game' or 'tool' whereby people can communicate their intents, and cause changes in the world, in ways that can be totally unrelated to dictionary-style descriptions of words.

    W's alternative was very difficult for me to understand until I learned, of all things, a security protocol used in computer software called the 'Diffie–Hellman key exchange' for inter-user authentication. By this method, two people can have 'private color codes' to encode data for exchange, and yet they each can understand each other without knowing the other person's private color code. To do so, they both mix their private colors with a public color; and the tones of the private and public colors are chosen so that, when they each receive a colored message from the other, they can each subtract their private color from the message color, extracting the same color that the other sent. The result is a 'shared secret communication' where both have the same color, but don't know the secret color of the other; and that remains the initialization of all secure connections on the Internet today (for the full mathematical explanation, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffie%E2%80%93Hellman_key_exchange#Cryptographic_explanation).

    The idea of 'shared secrets' helped me understand W as follows. In this example, Alice and Bob both have a secret intent that the other does not know, but they can still communicate effectively:

    * Alice [secret] is hungry ->
    -- Alice says 'Bob please bring in groceries from car.'
    * Bob [secret] hears 'Alice wants me to get dressed to go outside.' ->
    -- Bob says 'It is raining'
    * Alice [secret] hears 'Bob is not hungry.' ->
    -- Alice says 'it is not raining.'
    * Bob [secret] hears 'Alice insists I get dressed to go outside.' ->
    -- Bob says 'if you think it's not raining, you bring in the groceries, and in exchange I'll start cooking dinner.'

    Through W's method the outcome is happy. Yet had Bob instead been a realist, a long argument would have ensued as to the nature of the meaning of 'rain,' with disputes about the difference between misty condensation, rainfall, and sleet. So the realist, following Russell's descriptivist theory, believes the solution to the contradiction is to converge on a common definition that "rain is defined as water drops, of size greater than XX mm3, falling from the sky at a rate of YY drops per square meter per second, above the temperature 0 Celsius." Such debate might have kept Bob from getting dressed, but meanwhile, Alice would be increasingly hungry, which is one explanation why realists can experience troubled marriages.

    Wittgenstein's point is now clear:
    * It is totally irrelevant to the conclusion whether the proposition 'it is raining' is true or not.
    * It is certainly irrelevant what the correct description of rain might be.
    * Bob is not told Alice is hungry.
    * Alice is not told Bob doesn't want to get dressed.
    And yet even so, Bob's 'positivist' conclusion is logically coherent, the result is happy, and there has been effective communication.

    It's impossible to explain this in terms of the 'descriptive theories of reality' that materialists frequently attempt to apply to all aspects of the amazing world in which we live. Yet strangely, some theorists have tried to warp W's idea of 'positivism' into a disproof of the existence of meaning or a dualist mind/body reality. In fact, W has, as I started by saying, no intent to state 'any theory of meaning' or 'metaphysical grounds' at all, because, as he tries to point out, that denies the ability to understand the real nature of the conversation between Alice and Bob.

    That is to say, W holds that a theory of meaning and metaphysics is NOT NECESSARY for effective communication. Just because they are not necessary does not imply that other forms of communication could be based on theories of meaning. Rather, Wittgenstein has instead expanded the scope of that which can be understood in language beyond that which theories of logical meaning and metaphysics can explain.

    Therefore, he concludes, if one attempts to make a single, general, total statement about ALL communication, the most one can do is say that language exists, and the totality of 'the world' as far we know it for sure, is only the facts we state in language. About all other things about which we do not speak, we cannot really say what is true or not. In his earlier narrower theory of logical positivism, he held that statements about 'intrinsic states' (such as emotions) fall outside the boundaries of that which we can speak and know to be true; but his later thought, by adding ideas of language games and linguistic tools; increased the domain of knowledge beyond that empirically verifiable in some largely undefinable way.   

    There, then, is a return to the beginning of W, and where I end...Except to say, maybe Bob actually knew Alice was hungry. And maybe Alice knew Bob didn't really want to get dressed. Whatever the metaphysics and nature of meaning, however, they are both still wiser to pass over that in silence. :)
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    That's very well put, but all it seems to be saying is that sometimes we're not interested in the truth value of a stated proposition, or its boundary conditions, or a scientific account. Instead, the proposition encodes for another unstated meaning. So we can use words to mean something other than what's stated in the dictionary.

    But when realists talk about apples or rain, presumably they are interested in the truth value of the stated propositions and not some other meaning. Realists may want to argue that propositions do correspond to reality, at least in cases where there isn't a hidden agenda! The cat is on the mat means exactly what is stated, which can be looked up in a dictionary. It would be silly to think that dictionary definitions never reflect the way words are used, because often we do state facts, or what we think are facts.
  • ernestm
    1k
    Well, I will let W speak for himself on that.

    What I give is the morphology of the use of an expression. I show that it has kinds of uses of which you had not dreamed. In philosophy one feels forced to look at a concept in a certain way. What I do is suggest, or even invent, other ways of looking at it. I suggest possibilities of which you had not previously thought. You thought that there was one possibility, or only two at most. But I made you think of others. Furthermore, I made you see that it was absurd to expect the concept to conform to those narrow possibilities. Thus your mental cramp is relieved, and you are free to look around the field of use of the expression and to describe the different kinds of uses of it.
    Lectures of 1946 - 1947, as quoted in Ludwig Wittgenstein : A Memoir (1966) by Norman Malcolm, p. 43
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    Thus your mental cramp is relieved, and you are free to look around the field of use of the expression and to describe the different kinds of uses of it.ernestm

    That's fine and good, but how is this a criticism of philosophical discussion? It seems only to critique philosophers who were constricting language use to narrow definitions, like the logical positivists, perhaps?

    I understand that language has various usages, and the same word can have multiple meanings, but I don't see how that impacts philosophy. When doing philosophy, I have certain meanings in mind, and not all the other uses of words, because I'm engaging in philosophy, instead of trying to avoid going out in the mist or cooking dinner.
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    This isn't mysticism, it's just stating ordinary language philosophy and the redundant theory of meaning and truth in another way.

    However, the questions raised by philosophers as to the nature of reality as we perceive it are important to Wittgenstein; but, I suspect he thought in most cases unanswerable and nonsensical.
  • ernestm
    1k
    That's a common misconception arising from early positivism.

    Wittgenstein actually is telling you that everything you ever thought was truth in your entire life could be wrong. It does take a little time for that to sink in.

    What I did learn in my own life is to put that in a nice way )
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    Wittgenstein actually is telling you that everything you ever thought was truth in your entire life could be wrong. It does take a little time for that to sink in.ernestm

    This is his sentiment towards the descriptivist theory of meaning.

    Edit: Wittgenstein is quite Kantian in this regard. At least in the Tractatus.
  • ernestm
    1k
    Well, I don't think 'sentiment' is quite the right word for it, but yes, his thought is that you have to possess an innate trust in there actually being an intended correspondence for it to exist, and to know when your own 'private key' is capable of interpreting it. The idea of private experience being incommunicable and influencing all communication might not extend to deductions in mathematics and propositional calculus; but it rather changes the significance and purpose of engaging in such activities, because all intentional acts become a means to an end, and the 'end,' per se, is ultimately unknowable. It can only be chosen through belief. So that's why I say I try to put a positive attitude on it: we can make the world more pleasant for ourselves and others by accepting beliefs in shared happiness. Of course, there is no necessity for that either, and one can see a lot of philosophers these days falling into rather depressive solipsistic skepticism.
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    Of course, there is no necessity for that either, and one can see a lot of philosophers these days falling into rather depressive solipsistic skepticism.ernestm

    That's quite interesting as Wittgenstein professed a very strong version of solipsism in the Tractatus. Namely, a sort of linguistic solipsism.

    EDIT: I'd even say that this line of thought continues in the Investigations.

    "If a lion could speak we would not understand it."
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    That's quite interesting as Wittgenstein professed a very strong version of solipsism in the Tractatus.Question

    Which is also interesting, because he does get accused of being a solipsist, or espousing some form of solipsism:

    "I am my world."

    "The limits of language are the limits of my world."
  • ernestm
    1k
    True, but that was placed in an entire 'new light,' as I try to say positively, by the investigations.
  • Shawn
    13.3k


    See my previous edited post. The solipsism is still present in the Investigations despite people thinking the PLA repudiates that.
  • ernestm
    1k
    Oh, well it is possible to interpret the private data,' being incommunicable, as solipsist. But what I tried to explain, via the analogy with cryptographic key exchange, is that it still enables fruitful communication with others possessing their own private colors, via mixing with the correct public shared color. It seems to me the real issue for the argument is that the definition of such public shared color so that it enables communication, and what that might be. Frankly I have not thought so deeply about that in the past, but if the analogy makes sense to other people, then I could try to map it to some existing concepts which would provide more insight into it.
  • ernestm
    1k
    When doing philosophy, I have certain meanings in mind, and not all the other uses of words, because I'm engaging in philosophy, instead of trying to avoid going out in the mist or cooking dinner.Marchesk

    Well I could trust that to be true, but it is not W's point. The point is that when people are engaged in natural language, they are NOT attempting to define truth perfectly. What I observe is many people call themselves philosophers, but what they are actually engaged in some kind of religious crusade to convince everyone of their own intellectual superiority and superior insight, so I learned to be cautious.
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    But what I tried to explain, via the analogy with cryptographic key exchange, is that it still enables fruitful communication with others possessing their own private colors, via mixing with the correct public shared color.ernestm

    Yeah, it's unclear where Wittgenstein stands on our perception of reality. Is it indirect or direct or rather what I believe Wittgenstein is trying to say is that there are no grounds or objective criteria to make that distinction.
  • ernestm
    1k
    I don't know enough in detail, and all I could say is that he did change his mind about what he was saying, so what he said earlier might not be the final, and what he said later might not be completely thought out. So my initial response would be, even from W's own words on that, there could be no clear answer what his theory should actually imply that way.
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    Well, I can tell you that according to the Tractatus, we are direct realists. Where 'realists' is just our ability to picture logical relations between objects, but are bound by the limits of language. And, more importantly, irrespective of 'ability', those bounds are absolute.

    The Investigations is much less rigorous and logical and treats reality as a sociological language game, meaning that how we perceive reality is entirely dependent on our inclinations, desires, upbringing, and will.

    This is why I have always preferred the clarity of the Tractatus.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    The Investigations is much less rigorous and logical and treats reality as a sociological language game, meaning that how we perceive reality is entirely dependent on our inclinations, desires, upbringing, and will.Question

    Man is the Measure with some postmodern deconstruction
  • ernestm
    1k
    I can understand that, and I've known people who found a lot of comfort in it, especially if they had early emotional problems, because it does allow a definitive clarity.

    On thinking about it briefly, I do remember a discussion of indirect versus direct perception somewhere later, but I don't have all the books here, and they are very expensive now. I really should wait before saying anything deeper myself, until I have access to a library, I think in June I might be able to look it up. It depends how good the library is.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k
    That is to say, W holds that a theory of meaning and metaphysics is NOT NECESSARY for effective communication.ernestm

    Yes, effective communication is possible (and therefore NOT NECESSARY) under those circumstances, but there is a high probability of misunderstanding. Perhaps when Bob said "it is raining", what he really meant was "go fuck yourself", and not "I am not hungry".

    That is why applicable theories of meaning and description are useful, to help us increase the odds of actually understanding what the other person is saying. What happens when we get into much more complex communications, such as scientific studies?
  • ernestm
    1k
    While I appreciate YOUR sentiment there, the general consensus of the human race has been in the opposite direction, but in my personal experience, not for the actual reason you state. The reason starts with the parent's desire to please their children and telling them Santa Claus exists. And this has grown so much in popularity that Santa Claus, whether he exists or not, now controls 15-20% of the world economy. So the general inclination, as far as Ive since I started figuring this out, is that people WANT there to be effective communication based on private secrets which are not shared from a very early point in life, leading to ideas of 'falling in love,' even as the basis of marriage, and mutual trust on the effectiveness of altruism. But if the GOP actually manages to eradicate the charitable giving tax credit, you will have to call me wrong! :)
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k

    But what people want, and what is actually the case, are two distinct things. What is actually the case is that knowledge progresses through the devolution of private thoughts. And to keep secrets, even innocuous looking ones like Santa Clause, actually hinders the growth of knowledge. So it's generally considered a moral virtue to be honest and sincere in one's interactions with others, because this is beneficial to society as a whole.
  • ernestm
    1k
    Actually, we've had this conversation before, probably you don't remember. Anyway, that's an admirable MORAL virtue, but there is a problem extending it into ethics, because this is not only about 'private thoughts' but about outright lying. It is undeniable that the only reason the entire planet is not in perpetual war is because enough diplomats have learned how to lie to each other gracefully, and it is too frequently the case that in-laws don't cause divorces is because they lie when they have to. So just like Santa Claus, when we get older, enough of us are wise enough to lie diplomatically to keep the peace, and quite a number of us know the other is lying too but learn that there can be higher values at stake. And this is not a case for arguing the ethics of that, but rather, to honor the most the morality of those who know how to tell the truth in adverse situations without lying, yet not cause tragedies, for they sadly are far too rare.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k
    It is undeniable that the only reason the entire planet is not in perpetual war is because enough diplomats have learned how to lie to each other gracefully, and it is too frequently the case that in-laws don't cause divorces is because they lie when they have to.ernestm

    Be truthful now ernestm. What you call "undeniable", I would say is extremely doubtful.
  • ernestm
    1k
    That is because you started by saying that a desire for acts of kindness and love are not the reason people want to keep private experiences themselves. As I said already, part of the point of the positivist attitude, and the reason why 'positivism' was chosen as a label, is that the general experience of the human race has been that cultures which encourage acts of kindness and love are more successful in the long term, and contrary to your own desire, that is why Santa Claus controls 15-20% of the world economy, that is why the idea of falling in love as the basis of marriage continues to take over in more cultures, and that is why the GOP listed charitable giving as the very first deduction they would not remove from their tax reform. If it were otherwise, or if the GOP changes its mind, then you would be right, but as far as I can discuss it with you, I've now cycled back to exactly the first point: in a system of communication where private experience exists, like it or not, if you seek evil, you will find it. As you yourself demonstrate now for the sixth or seventh time in our dialog, which apparently you repeat to so many people you can't remember it. So I don't expect you ever to be persuaded that people might actually be better than you think, and it is time for me to feed my cat and go to bed. good night.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k

    I think you should go back and read my first post on this thread, because I didn't say anything like that. And what is this that I've demonstrated "for the sixth or seventh time in our dialogue"? I think you've mixed me up with someone else.
  • mcdoodle
    1.1k
    Thanks Ernest I think the op is well put.
  • andrewk
    2.1k
    That's a very interesting example ernest. Did you come up with it?

    I would agree with the conclusion that neither a metaphysical theory, nor theory of meaning, is necessary for communication to be successful. However, I don't think that makes Russell's position wrong. In my experience, people sometimes take a Russellian approach and sometimes a Wittian approach to conversations like that. In a Russellian discussion, an argument might ensue about whether it was raining 'You call that rain? That ain't rain. Go look it up in the dictionary!'

    In fact, the discussion you describe reminds me of examples from books on relationship counselling and effective communication. It is the optimal way to communicate, in which we seek to understand what the other feels and wants, rather than literally insisting on the words they said. The reason so many self-help books get written about that is that most of us (very much including me) are not mature and insightful enough to listen and speak in that way. Instead we get into petty arguments about whether it really is raining and end up casting aspersions on each others' intelligence and education.

    To be fair to Russell, there is a Russellian way to reach a similarly harmonious conclusion. The two would identify that they had different definitions of rain, agree on a different standard to use ('it's wet enough to get my pyjamas damp and uncomfortable') and then discuss the best way to deal with the groceries / meal situation.

    By the way, why were there groceries out in the car if Bob was still in his PJs? Had Alice gone out shopping before breakfast? Or was it an evening shopping trip and Bob had already got ready for bed? I think that's the real mystery in this scenario.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    By the way, why were there groceries out in the car if Bob was still in his PJs? Had Alice gone out shopping before breakfast? Or was it an evening shopping trip and Bob had already got ready for bed? I think that's the real mystery in this scenario.andrewk

    The groceries are mystical in this scenario. You cannot speak of where they came from, and they help illuminate language as game between spouses over who will prepare dinner.
  • ernestm
    1k
    you're welcome.

    While I agree with you along lines of principles of rationality, if you have ever tried to have an argument about whether it is raining or not with a hungry wife, I'd hope for your sake you'd reach a different conclusion. A better solution, from my own experience, is that if your wife is on a diet, then cook very, very slowly!

    Marchesk suggested 'it is raining' as an example of a proposition which can be known as either true or false, and I constructed the conversation in reply to him.

    That's very well put, but all it seems to be saying is that sometimes we're not interested in the truth value of a stated proposition, or its boundary conditions, or a scientific account. Instead, the proposition encodes for another unstated meaning.Marchesk

    I had to think about this quite a bit, sorry for the intermission. What you suggest is a rational solution--and rationally desirable. But what I conclude is that there is no way to determine what the uncoded meaning is. If you tried asking Alice, she could very well deny she was hungry. If you tried asking Bob, he could very well deny he was feeling lazy. Bob could say he was too busy. Alice could say she just wants to get jobs done so she can relax.

    So I thought about whether it could be possible that history of prior occurrences could in some way result in a better prediction. But I can't think how that works either, from an axiomatic perspective, because people can say the same thing for different reasons at different times, and there is no clear method to determine if the intent. In fact, according to best of game theory, the intent for the same utterance, or the utterance for the same intent could well have been altered by the speaker since the last occurrence, in order to 'win the game.'

    This is in fact why W. says the connection with reality is 'mystical.' There is no way to determine unstated meanings, so in the end we have to hope for some mystical connection between Alice and Bob that would enable them to understand each other regardless what they actually say, and all that can actually be known is what they say.

    The inference is, therefore, methods of translation to some scientific account cannot ever be certain that the inference they make is correct; as I observed in a prior article in truth, the most that scientific theories can ever do is not be unproven.
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