Does theism ultimately explain anything?

Astro Cat

Suppose I wanted to explain why my yard has grass in it: I could say the grass is there because someone planted it. Yet then someone could ask some microcosm questions: "why did they plant it there," to which I could give some explanation (after some research) about the historical reasons for planting this type of plant in a residential yard. "Where does grass come from," to which I could explain (after some more research) the natural and artificial evolution of this plant. "How did the environment in which the grass evolved before humans started using it get there," to which I could explain Earth's formation. Then Sol's formation. Then the Milky Way's formation, so on and so forth.

At some point, it would be common for a theist to say, "aha, but there's a point where you can't do this explaining anymore. Why did the Big Bang happen the way it did, which set up all of these contingencies ultimately leading to your yard having grass in it?" I would say, "well I don't know" (though as a physicist I might hem and haw over speculative things like a multiverse, I would be able to see that this doesn't really answer the question, which is about some kind of "ultimate" explanation).

The theist might then say, "well, your worldview is anemic, because on theism, I do have an ultimate explanation: because God willed it to be so, and made it so via God's power and God's knowledge."

Yet, I've always felt there's a poverty to theism's explanatory power in that it seems like it's just pushing the quest for an "ultimate explanation" one step back and never actually gets there: for instance, I don't feel like God "ultimately explains" why my yard has grass in it in a way that's more complete than nontheism. This is because I could then just ask microcosm questions of my own, such as "well why does God have the properties that God has which led to this chain of contingencies?"

The theist, of course, can't answer "because God willed it to be so." That would be putting the cart before the horse. In order for God to "will" anything or do anything at all, God has to already have properties in order to do so: so, on theism's truth, God has to have had some properties that God didn't decide on (because it requires properties to decide on properties) and couldn't have helped but to have had.

The theist's so-called "ultimate answer" still falls back to "because it happens to be so," which isn't really that powerful or impressive.

On this view, theism doesn't really explain anything at all that nontheism can't. Why is there grass in my yard? Because of a long chain of apparent contingencies that happens to be so, there is some point in the chain of microcosm questions that neither theists nor nontheists can really answer other than by shrugging and saying "I either don't know, or suppose it just must have been that way." The nontheist has to say this about the universe existing, the theist has to say this about God having God's properties. In both cases, something is supposed by someone to "just be that way," without an explanation that can be firmly rooted in God's character, will, or actions.

So what does theism explain that nontheism can't (or, put another way, what does theism explain that doesn't have some microcosm question rendering it toothless in terms of explanatory power)?

Andrew4Handel

↪Astro Cat

They say gods are made in mans image.

Nature is described through human faculties and perception, reason, meaning and intent and these are the attributes people give gods but not nature.

Humans have purposes/motives but evolution says nature doesn't have a teleology. We design things for a purpose like a computer. We create moral systems nature doesn't.

I think you can defend gods and the esoteric as explaining these types of things that a purely materialist atoms banging together doesn't explain, like meaning in language, concepts, desires and so on.

Atheists appear to be trying to make us just another senseless causal determined mechanism of brute nature in my opinion.

Vera Mont

So what does theism explain that nontheism can't (or, put another way, what does theism explain that doesn't have some microcosm question rendering it toothless in terms of explanatory power)? — Astro Cat

It doesn't matter: explanation is not the purpose of religion.
In the beginning of human wonderment, there were creation stories to account for how a particular people came to be where they are and who they are. Those stories are not meant to be factual explanations: they're stories. They're self-descriptive; they express the and world-view of a cohesive group, and illustrate the basis of their moral understanding. They are elaborated into the healing stories of shamans and moral tales for the instruction of children, and dances and dramatic ceremonial performances, anecdotes and entertainments; stories whereby an itinerant adventurer might earn his supper and stories to exchange with other tribes at trade and marriage markets.
These stories were later magnified and elaborated into the civilized pantheons - the formalized gods of city-states, that had stratified class systems, top-down administrative structures and rigid legal codes. This kind of religion had as its primary function the preservation of the status quo.
As civilization grew bigger, so did their organized religion become powerful, more implausible, more remote from daily experience, offering sticks of guilt and hell and carrots of miracle and heaven to promote whatever behaviour the elite wanted from the polity.

deletedmemberbcc

Maybe a better question is, does theism explain anything? Is theism explanatory at all?

T Clark

Does theism ultimately explain anything? — Astro Cat

Both science and theism are approaches to understanding reality, metaphysical positions. Neither explains anything, but both, either, can be useful and appropriate.

T Clark

Atheists appear to be trying to make us just another senseless causal determined mechanism of brute nature in my opinion. — Andrew4Handel

I think you're right.

Vera Mont

I think you can defend gods and the esoteric as explaining these types of things that a purely materialist atoms banging together doesn't explain, like meaning in language, concepts, desires and so on. — Andrew4Handel

Why do gods need defending? If they can't take care of themselves, even to the extent of being safe from non-believers, how will the gods take care of their faithful?

explaining these types of things that a purely materialist atoms banging together doesn't explain,

This does not exhibit a deep understanding of science.

like meaning in language, concepts, desires and so on

What makes you think those are other-worldly, or non-physical phenomena?

Atheists appear to be trying to make us just another senseless causal determined mechanism of brute nature in my opinion. — Andrew4Handel

That's the Big Misconception. The fact that theists try to make everyone else behave and think as they do does not indicate that everyone else thinks and behaves as they do. We are not trying to make you into anything. We just don't buy your version of reality or want to follow your rules.

Andrew4Handel

Why do gods need defending? If they can't take care of themselves, even to the extent of being safe from non-believers, how will the gods take care of their faithful? — Vera Mont

I am defending them as an explanation. Giving them explanatory powers. The thread title was "Does theism ultimately explain anything?"

Somethings have not been explained and there is no potential physical/material explanation for them things like the meaning of words and symbolism, mental representation and consciousness etc.

These things may give a reason for speculating about the existence of a deity in the shape of the human mind. I didn't specify any specific sect of gods other than ones sharing our traits and traits we have no explanation for

Humans have now invented millions of things, including writing millions of books and composing hundreds of thousands of tunes. This is design, purpose, meaning and creativity. The explanation for this involves human intelligence.

But it doesn't tell us anything about the ethics of humans and there limitations.

If one invokes God in some process they don't have to cast aspersion on his or her or its ethics.

Andrew4Handel

"explaining these types of things that a purely materialist atoms banging together doesn't explain,"
This does not exhibit a deep understanding of science. — Vera Mont

As opposed to what? You have a deep understanding of science you want to impart which does not reduce things to fundamental particles? Go ahead.

"like meaning in language, concepts, desires and so on"
What makes you think those are other-worldly, or non-physical phenomena? — Vera Mont

They are non physical by definition. How is a dream physical? How is a concept physical? How is consciousness physical etc?

That's the Big Misconception. The fact that theists try to make everyone else behave and think as they do does not indicate that everyone else thinks and behaves as they do. We are not trying to make you into anything. We just don't buy your version of reality or want to follow your rules. — Vera Mont

I am an agnostic and I am antireligious and don't believe in God.

As an agnostic I have debated heavily with atheists over the years and I know what common trends and beliefs are amongst them.

They also assume anyone who disagrees with them is religious and attribute all sorts of motives and beliefs to them. I can quote prominent atheists on this.

For example Richard Dawkins:

"Now they swarm in huge colonies, safe inside gigantic lumbering robots, sealed off from the outside world, communicating with it by tortuous indirect routes, manipulating it by remote control.

They are in you and in me; they created us, body and mind; and their preservation is the ultimate rationale for our existence. They have come a long way, those replicators. Now they go by the name of genes, and we are their survival machines."

Andrew4Handel

Maybe a better question is, does theism explain anything? Is theism explanatory at all? — busycuttingcrap

Maybe it explains the human dilemma and the human character?

Vera Mont

As an agnostic I have debated heavily with atheists over the years and I know what common trends and beliefs are amongst them. — Andrew4Handel

Well, if you already know what I'm thinking, why should i make an effort to tell you?

Tom Storm

The theist's so-called "ultimate answer" still falls back to "because it happens to be so," which isn't really that powerful or impressive.

On this view, theism doesn't really explain anything at all that nontheism can't. — Astro Cat

Yes, it's fairly clear that theism has no explanatory power. It is functionally no different to saying 'the magic man did it' or 'because the magic man says so'. As a 'reason' it's a manifestly shallow and open ended.

You can see how this generally works. If you already believe in god then the explanation god, our magic man did it or says so, is going to be convincing. Because this belief is already part of your worldview.

Atheism doesn't explain anything. Most atheists like the phase, "I don't know' when it comes to some of the more boutique questions we might have about the universe/reality. Atheism is the answer to just one question - are you convinced god/s exist?

I try not to judge atheism or theism by its idiots and fanatics.

Andrew4Handel

Science does seem to have to take the position that reality makes sense, is coherent, has laws and responds to human reason.

Andrew4Handel

Well, if you already know what I'm thinking, why should i make an effort to tell you? — Vera Mont

You said:

The fact that theists try to make everyone else behave and think as they do does not indicate that everyone else thinks and behaves as they do. We are not trying to make you into anything. — Vera Mont

I am not a theist but you clearly have your prejudices towards them and seem to assume I was one with no evidence.

You have given me some insight into your thought processes as has years of debating with atheists as a non theist. I got a lot of vitriol for disagreeing with atheists despite repeatedly stating I am anti religious, non theistic and agnostic and don't currently believe in God.

Andrew4Handel

One thing In do believe is that morality cannot survive in a purely physical, design free world where we are just an another animal.

I am currently a moral nihilist and I don't think moral claims have truth value and are rather the equivalent to preferences.

And I think the same goes for a lot of other human beliefs and institutions we want to preserve.

Moliere

↪Andrew4Handel

Hrm.

I'd say that morality is important.

And we live in a world without a designer.

I'm mostly in favor of moral error-theory, though I understand it effects people differently.

But the way I look at it is -- I don't care if it's true or false, I care about it. So morality survives, even in a purely physical, design free world.

deletedmemberbcc

↪Andrew4Handel

Does it, though? In what sense is theism explanatory at all, keeping in mind that the purpose of an explanation is to analyze or account for something we don't know or understand in terms of something we do know and understand? Is God something we know and understand, such that saying "God did X" adds to our understanding of how/why X occurs? Or is it simply kicking the explanatory can down the road?

180 Proof

What explains "god"(-of-the-gaps)?

If non-evident "god" is unexplainable – (the) brute fact, why not begin with the evident existence (or universe) as unexplainable – (the) brute fact – instead?

Andrew4Handel

↪busycuttingcrap

We are trying to understand ourselves in the process of that we explore our character in different ways and our limitations and capacities.

Religions have inspired art works and architecture and social systems. People have raised the question of what would existed if religion and beliefs in gods didn't exist.

as I said in a previous post

Science does seem to have to take the position that reality makes sense, is coherent, has laws and responds to human reason. — Andrew4Handel

We are trying to explain the world under a set of beliefs an assumptions. Some things are explained like the human body and its mechanisms as having a purpose. We don't just accept chaos we believe for some reason in some kind of underlying order.

What reasons would we have believe reality was rational, law driven and explicable prior to religion?

Tom Storm

Is God something we know and understand, such that saying "God did X" adds to our understanding of how/why X occurs? Or is it simply kicking the explanatory can down the road? — busycuttingcrap

Exactly. It's a placeholder statement rather than an explanation. We could equally posit magic or the work of aliens (as some are now doing) as equivalent explanations.

One thing In do believe is that morality cannot survive in a purely physical, design free world where we are just an another animal. — Andrew4Handel

And, as I often write, religions can't provide a foundation for morality either since there is no moral framework from the Koran or Bible that isn't also a case of subjective preferences and interpretation. Hence the multiple and conflicting views held by theists who cannot agree on anything. Morality, wherever wherever we say it comes from, is always the product of human agreement and disagreement.

Andrew4Handel

But the way I look at it is -- I don't care if it's true or false, I care about it. So morality survives, even in a purely physical, design free world. — Moliere

But moral issues can never be resolved. We cannot prove the Holocaust was wrong or a sin or breaking a natural law. Our current moral systems can be overthrown.

We will just be imposing moral systems by emotional manipulation and brute force rather than reason.

I am concerned that people claim to have abandoned religion, gods and superstition but then hold onto social norms without justification assuming they are entitled to them by their own belief system.

Moliere

But moral issues can never be resolved — Andrew4Handel

I can make a choice. That resolves it. I might regret it later, but if choice isn't part of a moral issue, it's a kind of illusion.

Andrew4Handel

Morality, wherever wherever we say it comes from, is always the product of human agreement and disagreement. — Tom Storm

If morality is the product of humans then why can't it be the products of gods?

If we think we can do a good job of creating a moral system then why couldn't a god?

If we view a god as a super intelligence, with more power and knowledge then it seems that gods proposed powers would be greater than ours.

I would see any proposed god as a being with our unique capacities at a higher level hence the idea we are made in Gods image.

I am playing devils advocate here. But I don't see a problem with a god like entity with powers like ours but greater. We invented this the internet we could end up creating an entire virtual reality playing God ourselves.

Andrew4Handel

I can make a choice. That resolves it. I might regret it later, but if choice isn't part of a moral issue, it's a kind of illusion. — Moliere

The problem is we have had the Nazis, Pol pot and Mao along with the despots of religions.

People make moral decisions all the time with terrible consequences. The odds of getting it wrong are high and the consequences dire.

I think a potential restraint is an agnostic belief in an afterlife judgement that we may be judged for our actions later on by a higher power. karma or something

People who don't see that human morality has failed badly what with war, slavery and genocide etc are strange to me. I believe all religions are man made and they just add to the list of failures of human moralising. And you can't blame the gods if they don't exist. Just us.

Tom Storm

I am playing devils advocate here. But I don't see a problem with a god like entity with powers like ours but greater. We invented this the internet we could end up creating an entire virtual reality playing God ourselves. — Andrew4Handel

I undertand.

If morality is the product of humans then why can't it be the products of gods?

If we think we can do a good job of creating a moral system then why couldn't a god? — Andrew4Handel

Well, firstly the time to believe in that is when there is robust evidence of it. And what kind of pissweak god would leave morality to old books, translations and interpretations? Where do we find this morality you claim is the product of some massive intelligence? Hasn't it or they done a stupid-ass job getting it out there?

180 Proof

But moral issues can never be resolved. — Andrew4Handel

"Moral issues" such as?

Moliere

People make moral decisions all the time with terrible consequences. The odds of getting it wrong are high and the consequences dire. — Andrew4Handel

That's the terror of responsibility -- what you choose will matter. What you choose matters even if you don't want it to. "People" includes you -- and that's the only person you have control over anyways.

So, knowing that making bad choices matters -- it has consequences which are dire -- you make a choice.

By all means, make a considered choice. Think about it until it feels right.

But that's how you resolve a moral dilemma.

Andrew4Handel

Well, firstly the time to believe in that is when there is robust evidence of it. And what kind of pissweak god would leave morality to old books, translations and interpretations? Where do we find this morality you claim is the product of some massive intelligence? Hasn't it or they done a stupid-ass job getting it out there? — Tom Storm

It took humans thousands of years to start understanding reality.

The notion is that we eventually uncover the correct morality which we discover is implanted by the gods or God.

Some people believe we already have god given moral intuitions and that we are just not following them correctly.

I am someone who left a religious cult that had lots of draconian rules, we couldn't shop on a Sunday, watch television, wear makeup and Jewellery, listen to the radio, join a union, get a mortgage etc. When I left it I realised it was all made up and became a moral nihilist.

So you can either realise it is all made up or hold out hope for uncovering a true moral system somewhere. Nihilism is not a good place to be. I have partial recovered an become an agnostic not trusting any human absolutes.

Andrew4Handel

"Moral issues" such as? — 180 Proof

All of them. There is no correct answer.

Prominent issues dividing people include Abortion and assisted suicide, capitalism and anti-capitalism.

Even issues with the greatest consensus are simply a reflection of a current consensus not a moral certainty.

I would be happy to have the answer to one moral question or ethical dilemma.

Politics is quite viciously split.

Andrew4Handel

↪Moliere

Well I think it requires faith.

Faith that you are doing the right thing and drawing the right conclusions.

180 Proof

Prominent issues dividing people include Abortion and assisted suicide, capitalism and anti-capitalism. — Andrew4Handel

What makes these "moral issues" instead of political issues?

What I'm trying to get at is what you mean by "moral" or "ethical" because that's where I suspect much of your (or my) confusion lies.

Does theism ultimately explain anything?

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