Human beings maybe the rarest of its kind, in a universe of 200 billion trillion stars.
8 billion, is a splash in the biggest ocean you can imagine!
Legacy, is what is built upon from each human generation.
The lifespan of the universe is vast indeed, so if it all feels pointless, then perhaps you need to look beyond your musings regarding your own mortality.
The greatest story ever told, is the story of the universe, and your part in it, is quite unique.
I don't understand those who think that's not enough? Especially when science may well offer us so many more options in the future, via transhumanism (lifespan extension).
The fact I wont be there to see a better future for the human race, does not mean I am justified in making no effort to help drive towards it, for those who will be here, when it happens.

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Everything we do will eventually just crumbles to the dust. — niki wonoto

Thanks for the heads-up. I shall bear it in mind.

....in the grand scheme of things — niki wonoto

I thought your post was leading to the conclusion that all is vanity and all is pointless. Then in the very last sentence you spring the news that there is a grand scheme of things. But you leave us hanging in suspense about what the grand scheme is. Please tell more. What is the grand scheme of things and how did you find out about it? It might cheer us up.

Consider that even if there were a *grand scheme* life would still be pointless because all schemes, whether grand or pedestrian, are limited and transient. Without change there is no life.

But again, is this all there is to life? existence? It still feels pointless, in the end, in the grand scheme of things. — niki wonoto

Why must it have a point?

Nothing special. It's the same with human life. — niki wonoto

Why must it be special?

I generally don't get these kinds of questions. Like do people seriously wake up and think "Damn, I will not have enough of an impact to alter the entire universe irreversibly this is so sad".

World/human population is 8 billion now. It keeps increasing. It doesn't even matter if I'm gone/die — niki wonoto

I won't talk about the issues raised in your post, but I will respond to the one raised in the title of this discussion.

World population is currently 8 billion and is expected to reach a level of 11 billion before 2100. After that it is expected to decrease till it reaches an equilibrium population of about 9 billion. Birth rates in developed countries have declined dramatically over the past 50 years to the point that the population in many countries is declining. In the US, the birthrate has reached the break-even point of 2.1 live births per woman. Increases in the US population come from immigration. Demographers and economists predict that worker shortages will be as big or bigger problem than crowding, resource shortages, and environmental damage.

I forgot to welcome you to the forum so... Welcome to the forum.

But again, is this all there is to life? existence? It still feels pointless, in the end, in the grand scheme of things. — niki wonoto

So it's understandable that...

People of course will always try to rationalize this, all in a hope to convince themselves basically that life, especially their own lives, have meaning & purpose. And that each individual matters; each person matters. — niki wonoto

For you, though --

Everything we do will eventually just crumbles to the dust. So why bother? — niki wonoto

One reason to bother would be that it's pleasant to bother. But for you that's a mere rationalization in light of the harsh truth that everything we are and build will turn to dust and drift across a cold and dead universe. Death, dissolution, crumbling, loss -- these are the grand schemes of the universe. And they are opposed to everything we want.


One thing to realize is that this line of thinking comes about from a desire for the thing it denies -- purpose, order, life. It's the presence of a harsh grand scheme that's distressing. Life feels pointless because we want, and everything we try and want will eventually dissolve.

But if only eternal life makes life have a point, then life will forever remain pointless. You are right that you will die and things fall apart.

But the reason to bother is -- because it feels good. Or, at least, better.

And would you believe that on the other side the people say -- it doesn't matter that you'll die? It doesn't matter that things are ephemeral? That life is change? Today isn't all that bad.

even if there were a *grand scheme* life would still be pointless — praxis

Ach! I hadn't thought of that. I thought the grand scheme, were it to be grand enough, might give life a point. Perhaps it's too early to judge. We don't yet know what the grand scheme is in relation to which we don't matter. When we find out, it may reveal that life is not as pointless as people tend to think.

Like do people seriously wake up and think "Damn, I will not have enough of an impact to alter the entire universe irreversibly this is so sad". — khaled

I believe that some people seriously do, yes. Given that there are eight billion of us, then you could select almost any thought, however outlandish, and it will likely be the case that some people seriously wake up and think that thought.

Today there is even now a popular 'hype' philosophy like "optimistic nihilism". But to me personally, it's just the same basically with hedonism, which basically it all sounds the same, eg: "just live in the present moment, enjoy life, since we only live once!". But again, is this all there is to life? existence? — niki wonoto

We create our own values and purpose.

This could be helping people as @universeness has said, or improving ourselves, such as by learning as much as possible.

But in the grand scheme of things, the harsh truth is nothing really matters — niki wonoto

Speak for yourself. Meaning and purpose are created through effort, not bestowed. Maybe you just need to try harder.

I thought your post was leading to the conclusion that all is vanity and all is pointless. Then in the very last sentence you spring the news that there is a grand scheme of things. But you leave us hanging in suspense about what the grand scheme is. Please tell more. What is the grand scheme of things and how did you find out about it? It might cheer us up. — Cuthbert

:smirk: :up:

For most folks, 'what we can know' and 'what is real' are not enough for them (e.g. "Is this all there is?"); they need more – "god/s", "angels", "miracles", "heaven", "a divine plan", etc – in order to cope with intractable perplexities and their anxieties.The rest of us, however, seem to make due just fine without infantilizing ourselves with "magical thinking".

:up:
:up:
:up:
Thanks for the fresh air your words offer.
How many people now dead and gone, do we still reference and revere? (Legacy!)
How many good concepts such as democracy, fairness, justice, love, honesty etc are still the main drivers that we value most.
The three posts just made by the folks above, make me personally feel good. The fact that there are many other people, alive NOW, who DO NOT think life and living are pointless, makes me personally breathe a little more cleanly.
I would suggest that such people, are actually in the majority of the 8 billion mentioned.
Life offers the most incredible experiences!
If YOU think life is pointless, then either make room for those who don't, or get busy doing what you can to make better what it is in your power to make better. That would at least be a useful way to use up the life force you have.
If you choose to live your life as a curse, then you fast become USELESS! to yourself and to anyone else.
15,000 children die everyday for preventable reasons and our current stewardship of the Earth is pathetic. But, don't just shake your head, declare your species toxic and then permanently retract your head into your shell.
Do whatever you can do TO HELP CHANGE THINGS!!!!!
Misanthropes are like omnigods, Completely useless!
PICK A PURPOSE! (preferably one that's part of the solutions) GET INVOLVED!
Be all you can be @niki wonoto, leave a positive legacy. Make your entry in the story of the universe, a good one. Knowing you helped, can be one of the best feelings you will ever experience.

@universeness OK, but it takes all sorts to make a world. Every project team needs someone whose main contribution is to point out the flaws and say it'll never work. That's what makes us scrutinise and challenge and improve.

Every project team needs someone whose main contribution is to point out the flaws and say it'll never work. — Cuthbert

I have no problem with constructive criticism or even outright condemnation, when its deserved.
The nefarious do not react to deserved criticism in the honourable way you suggest. They normally react in true Donald Trump style. I agree with you when you are referring to people who have the best interests of all other people at heart.
I don't and won't defend those who moan about their existence as a human and who moan about how toxic all humans are, when their attitude and their behaviour day to day, is part of the problem. Antinatalists, misanthropes, fundamental theists etc, etc.

Welcome to your own personal struggle with the age old ‘existential crisis’.

Life is. The rest is blind speculation that’s sometimes dressed up as ‘meaning’/‘purpose’.

Today there is even now a popular 'hype' philosophy like "optimistic nihilism". But to me personally, it's just the same basically with hedonism, which basically it all sounds the same, eg: "just live in the present moment, enjoy life, since we only live once!". But again, is this all there is to life? existence? It still feels pointless, in the end, in the grand scheme of things. — niki wonoto

Each god and goddess is an archetype of a purposeful life. When I was younger I followed Demeter the goddess of motherhood and growing things. When my children left home, I began following Athena, the goddess who taught men how to rule themselves. I am a small part of something much bigger than myself. Apollo is important for reasoning and creativity. Like how big does our purpose have to be to be valid and important?

But in the grand scheme of things, the harsh truth is nothing really matters — niki wonoto

Except that’s not the “harsh truth” — it’s a statement made from a perspective, like everything else. The person holding this perspective, and making the claim, has psychological reasons for believing it and stating it. Naturally it seems like the one and ultimate truth to him.

But it’s no more true than when the angsty teenager exclaims that “life sucks” after not being invited to a party.

“Everything matters” is also a harsh truth.

life would still be pointless because all schemes, whether grand or pedestrian, are limited and transient. — praxis

Why does being limited and transient render something pointless?

Seems like utter nonsense to me.

But again, is this all there is to life? existence? It still feels pointless, in the end, in the grand scheme of things. — niki wonoto

Some people just feel life is pointless. I'm not sure reasoning makes much difference, it's a disposition.

The fact that things end doesn't matter to me. I don't enjoy my car any less even knowing that in 10-15 years it will probably be scrap. I don't enjoy a great meal any less knowing it will be eaten and gone. I don't enjoy a favorite movie any less knowing it will be over in 90 minutes. I don't enjoy my friendships any less knowing that in a few decades my friends will be dead. I see no necessary relationship between impermanence and pointlessness. It sounds like a hang up derived from organized religion, that only 'everlasting life' matters. My disposition might even go in the opposite direction. If we were immortal and subject to eternity, that would feel pointless to me.

I always use the illustration of ants: Some ants live, some ants die (from getting trampled, crushed by feet, etc etc etc). Nothing special. It's the same with human life. — niki wonoto

Nonsense. Ants are simply awesome.

Just compare them to single cell lifeforms. WHOW!!!

And if you live long, you might actually see Peak Human Population. So a top of some more billions. Both India and China are looking to get smaller with population...

Just think of all the countries that are by birth rate shrinking:

193 South Korea 1.1
190 Bosnia and Herzegovina 1.2
191 Singapore 1.2
192 Puerto Rico (US) 1.2
183 Mauritius 1.3
184 Portugal 1.3
185 United Arab Emirates 1.3
186 Greece 1.3
187 Cyprus 1.3
188 Moldova 1.3
189 Italy 1.3
174 Serbia 1.4
175 Croatia 1.4
176 Saint Lucia 1.4
177 Finland 1.4
178 Japan 1.4
179 Spain 1.4
180 Ukraine 1.4
181 Luxembourg 1.4
182 Hong Kong (China) 1.4
168 Hungary 1.5
169 Thailand 1.5
170 Canada 1.5
171 Poland 1.5
172 North Macedonia 1.5
173 Malta 1.5
156 Chile 1.6
157 Romania 1.6
158 Slovenia 1.6
159 Cuba 1.6
160 Barbados 1.6
161 Estonia 1.6
162 Albania 1.6
163 Slovakia 1.6
164 Bulgaria 1.6
165 Germany 1.6
166 Switzerland 1.6
167 Austria 1.6
3 More Developed Regions 1.6
139 Colombia 1.7
140 Montenegro 1.7
141 Bahamas 1.7
142 Iceland 1.7
143 Costa Rica 1.7
144 Czech Republic 1.7
145 Brazil 1.7
146 Trinidad and Tobago 1.7
147 Curaçao (Netherlands) 1.7
148 China 1.7
149 United Kingdom 1.7
150 Latvia 1.7
151 Netherlands 1.7
152 Belgium 1.7
153 Lithuania 1.7
154 Norway 1.7
155 Belarus 1.7
124 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 1.8
125 Nepal 1.8
126 France 1.8
127 Qatar 1.8
128 Maldives 1.8
129 Brunei 1.8
130 Armenia 1.8
131 Denmark 1.8
132 Sweden 1.8
133 United States 1.8
134 Ireland 1.8
135 New Zealand 1.8
136 Australia 1.8
137 Russia 1.8
138 Martinique (France) 1.8
73 Philippines 1.9
114 Bangladesh 1.9
115 Malaysia 1.9
116 Jamaica 1.9
117 Uruguay 1.9
118 Bahrain 1.9
119 Bhutan 1.9
120 New Caledonia (France) 1.9
121 French Polynesia (France) 1.9
122 Aruba (Netherlands) 1.9
123 North Korea 1.9
102 India 2.0
103 Mexico 2.0
104 Kuwait 2.0
105 Lebanon 2.0
106 Georgia 2.0
107 Vietnam 2.0
108 Turkey 2.0
109 Grenada 2.0
110 El Salvador 2.0
111 Azerbaijan 2.0
112 Antigua and Barbuda 2.0
113 U.S. Virgin Islands (US) 2.0
6 Latin America and the Caribbean 2.0
96 Libya 2.1
97 Sri Lanka 2.1
98 Tunisia 2.1
99 Iran 2.1
100 Myanmar (Burma) 2.1
101 Guadeloupe (France) 2.1

“Everything matters” is also a harsh truth. — Mikie

Yup.

Almost like "ultimate meaning" is a ruse.

But when you realize your actions matter -- maybe not on the scale of "everything" -- but matter none-the-less, it's a much harsher truth.

Hey there, welcome to THE Philosophy Forum. We are happy to have you here. Stay a long time!

quote="niki wonoto;d13793"]Most people in this world are oblivious or ignorant to this harsh reality[/quote]

Some ants live, some ants die — niki wonoto

nothing really matters — niki wonoto

it all sounds the same — niki wonoto

Speaking of everything sounding the same, stop whining about reality; ants (fact: they ALL die); meaninglessness (nothing is meaningless--there is no such thing as meaningless sex, for example); 7,500,000,000 people being oblivious or ignorant--how the hell do you know that?

People keep living everyday, thinking that their lives mean something; that their lives have meaning or purpose. — niki wonoto

Yeah, the fucking nerve!

Dear, I don't subscribe to this view myself, but it's worth adding to one's repertoire of responses to reality, such as it is.