What do you champion about humans Vera? — universeness

Nothing. I don't fight anymore. That doesn't mean I've become deaf and blind and too stupid to make predictions from what has been and what is to what will likely be.

I get the impression that you think the human race is incapable of producing a society which you yourself would judge as significantly better than any society we have created in the past or present. — universeness

Not incapable. That's the tragedy. We're capable, and have made some pretty good stabs at it, but we keep getting distracted, sidelined, deluded. It's like, every time we're on the right track, some megalomaniac jingles his car-keys and we follow him off a cliff.

Are you a secular naturalist or do you assign some credence to the existence of the 'immaterial?' — universeness

I'm not much of an 'ist', though in walking political life, I support the most nearly socialist party available to vote for. "Immaterial" is an elusive concept. There are attributes and ideas, feelings and impressions, imagination and relationships that are not physical, and are hard to trace to a physical cause. As to the supernatural, no, I give it no credence at all.

The 'totality' of all scientific effort DOES speak towards human questions such as 'why am I.' — universeness

In what language? What has it said? How do you know the voice you heard belonged to a 'totality', and not the man behind the curtain?

'I am, because I can think and I can demonstrate intent and purpose and I can do science and I can affect my surroundings and environment in ways that no other species on Earth can.' — universeness

That's a self-satisfied description, not a reason to exist. And that description could have been spoken by Tonda or any man since.

For me, at it's core, that's too close to choosing to live life as a curse. I will never choose to do that, no matter what happens to me! I will fight against living my life as a curse, every moment of every day. — universeness

Good for you!

Start there, and you're left with the idea that there are no coincidences, and that all has meaning. We study the Bible, therefore, not because it is more holy than the blade of grass or more imbued with meaning, but simply that it has been studied more extensively for the purposes of finding meaning, and we benefit from history's most insightful from having previously studied it. The same can be said of the sacred texts of other traditions as well. — Hanover

Thank you, I'll need to sit with that for a while.

Is this aesthetics? In a way I suppose, but the beauty is found in the meaning. — Hanover

Yes. That's how I should have put it. That's much better.

Right back at you twinkle!

In what language? What has it said? How do you know the voice you heard belonged to a 'totality', and not the man behind the curtain? — Vera Mont

In whatever language you understand. The man behind the curtain, exemplifies deception.
The 'totality,' of scientific knowledge exemplifies human intent and purpose to pursue the answers to every question we can ask. To me, that's a very honest and honourable goal.
Science has said and continues to say that the universe is knowable and it also confirms that we can do better as we can learn more. No god scripture has EVER offered a scientific formula/equation. There is no god beyond fiction.

That's a self-satisfied description, not a reason to exist. And that description could have been spoken by Tonda or any man since. — Vera Mont

Not only is it a reason to exist, its a reason to thrive and a reason to celebrate life and being alive.
Any man could have spoken such words, yes, men like Albert Einstein or Carl Sagan or any woman or any gender variant.

The 'totality,' of scientific knowledge exemplifies human intent and purpose to pursue the answers to every question we can ask. To me, that's a very honest and honourable goal. — universeness

Yes, I can see that.

That's the tragedy. We're capable, and have made some pretty good stabs at it, but we keep getting distracted, sidelined, deluded. It's like, every time we're on the right track, some megalomaniac jingles his car-keys and we follow him off a cliff. — Vera Mont

:fire:

As to the supernatural, no, I give it no credence at all.

Why is magical thinking still a thing with some folks 'discussing philosophy' in the twenty-first century? :smirk:

... "Reason is for living in this world and faith is living for the world-to-come".
— 180 Proof

This summation by your priest seems incorrect, or at least overly simplified — Hanover

By chance, Hanover, I just came across the following statement which the eminently learned Padre no doubt had paraphrased:

The Bible shows the way to go to heaven, not the way the heavens go. — Galileo Galilei

:fire: