The bible can be used to justify slavery or argue against it, — Athena

True. But you've scooted from "Christianity makes people passive" to "it's a two edged sword."

What is happening in the world today that can give the young a sense of purpose? I feel like we are free falling into chaos and desperately need to restore order and social purpose. — Athena

Climate change should do it.

Success lies neither in being appropriated by some arbitrary cultural notion of success nor by giving in to helplesness and misery. E.g. The best free climber in the world, Alex Honnold, was, initially, virtually unknown, had no money and lived out of his car. He neither dumped his passion to pursue more traditional forms of success nor spent his time fretting over useless self-defeating philosophies. And I very much doubt he stole his desire from a self-help cookie jar. — Baden

I like it when specific examples are given to cut through endless dialogues about abstractions. I know Alex and have done a podcast with him. He would shy away from "best free climber", but he could not dispute the fact he has done the most amazing climbing in the history of the sport. His sponsorships, now, I'm sure are substantial, but he certainly didn't set aim for monetary riches. However, I don't think he started out being helpless and miserable.

I've known quite a few "dirtbag" climbers over the years and for most their way of life is not the result of cultural conflicts, but rather a calling. Another friend, a "dirtbag" living on less than a half dollar a day, when I had the luxury of a dollar a day, eons ago, pursued somewhat different goals and ended up a billionaire who recently formed a foundation to protect the environment. But climbing reaches deep within you and you find a way to make a life that at least includes it.

Nevertheless, there is always one form or another of competition underlying the lifestyle. And most have to do with exploring the unknown or pushing boundaries, either by advancing one's credentials by identifying with a certain quantified level of difficulty - a little like a Karate student reaching Black Belt levels - or making a first ascent, or doing something else seen as admirable by the community.

Luckily my loaded question has no efficacy as to affecting someone’s life as compared to the reality of our social existence, oui? — schopenhauer1

Oui! :rofl:

True. But you've scooted from "Christianity makes people passive" to "it's a two edged sword."

What is happening in the world today that can give the young a sense of purpose? I feel like we are free falling into chaos and desperately need to restore order and social purpose.
— Athena

Climate change should do it. — frank

Oh yes, religions can bring out the best or the worst in people. Actually, I think the God of Abraham religions are worse when it comes to being divisive and wars. The basic mythology of a God having favorites is just wrong. And we can't get much more paradoxical that a superstitious religion that opposes superstition. :lol:

It could be a truly wonderful thing if climate change brought the world together and we used our intelligence for creating paradise. As I see that, it would be much more organic than high-tech. If we loved our planet as much as we love our technology, I think that would be a good thing. Imagine creating the most beautiful habitats instead of the most deadly weapons and fearing our own mistakes more than the will of a God or other humans. Our reality just does not make sense for intelligent beings. Blowing up millions of dollars and having nothing but destruction to show for all that money, instead of creating paradise. That is really dumb!

Some people are just there to fill up the available slots - they don't actually care what happens, who wins/loses. Others take joy in only participation. Still others buy beer and popcorn to watch and only watch the spectacle. The rest (how many left now?) are competing.

The question may be to what extent is the idea of winners or losers based on outer measurements of success. It is a dicey issue because validation, especially in the context of the social contexts may be important, especially in relation to ego identity. To what extent does it come down to social estimations. For example, does the esteemed philosophy professor and successful author have ultimate authority in knowledge. What about the person who may have explored deeply but is unknown or socially rejected? Life is competition, and probably unfair, and what may be important is how a person perceives one's value in this scheme.

Are those who deemed as losers or failures simply measured according to the social measures, especially as these may change? However, an important aspect may be that competition may make or break a person's sense of self-worth, as well as competition having a significant impact on economic survival. There is the question as to what extent one may sell one's soul to achieve the world. However, equally one may lose the world, materially and socially, which may drag the soul to destruction, making competition a trickster dimension in the search for ego integrity.

Thank you for all the comments. I really appreciate them all.

Sometimes I wonder too, what if it's true that some people are just born to lose? What if it's true that it's just their 'fate' or 'destiny' (or whatever it is) to be a failure/loser? What if it's true that some people are just not meant for this world? But then, why born? Well, because Life is random, isn't it? Even if there is some type of "god" or something like that, I'm afraid it's probably just the bad/evil one, playing & toying & experimenting around, at least with some of its creations. Or again, everything is random, & pointless, meaningless. Anything can happen, including any type of bad things unthinkable. Yes, even the random stupid shits, like me & my life for example. Things happened. Shits happened. That's life. For the winners, of course they're happy. But for the losers like me, it's seriously making me severely/heavily depressed & suicidal.