...when we talk about material objects we are talking about matter with form, and form is what is created and destroyed. — Metaphysician Undercover
form is what is created and destroyed — Metaphysician Undercover
"God is self-caused" is incoherent because it would mean that God is prior to Himself in time, and that seems to be contradictory. — Metaphysician Undercover
Is philosophy even searching for "God"? I've always thought philosophers seek wisdom (i.e. greater understanding). — 180 Proof
Yes, philosophers are not even looking for "God" so the question of "finding" it is moot. I take Rabbi Abraham Heschel at his word: God is in search of man rather than the other way around. — 180 Proof
One must be on the vagabond road freely thinking in order maybe to be found by Sophia rather than hold up warm and dry, well-fed and smug in some cozy destination (dogma) merely believing.Indeed, one must say then Sophia is seeking man and not the other way round. — Agent Smith
One must be on the vagabond road freely thinking in order maybe to be found by Sophia rather than hold up warm and dry, well-fed and smug in some cozy destination (dogma) merely believing. — 180 Proof
There is a certain desperation apparent in the attempts of various authors to eliminate God from an account of the origins of the universe. For, at bottom, what motivates such attempts is the desire to overcome the very incompleteness of the scientific project itself - I call it anxiety over contingency. ...
That reality is intelligible is the presupposition of all scientific endeavours: that the intelligibility science proposes is always subject to empirical verification means that science never actually explains existence itself but must submit itself to a reality check against the empirical data. This existential gap between scientific hypotheses and empirical verified judgment points to, in philosophical terms, the contingency of existence. There is no automatic leap from hypothesis to reality that can bypass a "reality check."
Is philosophy even searching for "God"? I've always thought philosophers seek wisdom (i.e. greater understanding). — 180 Proof
Does form exist without substance (matter)? — ucarr
However, if this is the case, then a given form, once destroyed, could never reappear at a later time. By this line of reasoning, destroy but one wheel and forevermore the wheel can never reappear. You don't believe this do you? — ucarr
Talk to just about any Christian and she will tell you God exists outside of time. — ucarr
Précisément! Hence, the OP's claim that the philosopher will not find God — Agent Smith
If that's true, Augustine was no philosopher, as he thought he--more than anyone--had found him — Ciceronianus
...what we find is... matter with form... — Metaphysician Undercover
By this line of reasoning, destroy but one wheel and forevermore the wheel can never reappear. — ucarr
Each object, wheel in your example, is unique, with a proper identity all to itself, as indicated by the law of identity — Metaphysician Undercover
By materialist principles the concept of "time" is tied to the activities of material things. If material things are moving, time is passing. Therefore under this conception of "time" there is no time without material things. God however, being the creator or cause, of material things, must be prior to material things and is therefore "outside of time" according to this conception of "time". That of course appears to be incoherent, to have something (God) which is prior in time, (as the cause of time), to time itself. — Metaphysician Undercover
But this just demonstrates that there is a problem with the materialist conception of "time". When "time" is tied to the material existence of things, in that way, the possibility of time which is prior to the occurrence of material things is ruled out. Then the actuality (form) which is necessarily prior to material objects as the cause of their existence, is rendered unintelligible, as "an act" without time is incoherent. — Metaphysician Undercover
What we "know about" (which?) "God" is that it is "the greatest mystery" – the (ultimate) inexplicable "answer" to every question that begs them all. Recognizing that "God" does not explain anything (re: mythos) is what motivated the Presocratic proto-scientists (physiologoi) in Ionia & Elea to speculate on rational explanations (logos) of nature (phusis) and our minds (nous). IMO, to seek explicable wisdom is incompatible with seeking inexplicable "God"."God" is one of the greatest mysteries of human existence. So if a philosopher seeks wisdom, then knowing about God would be a high priority. — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes. Our empirical experience of reality always finds form and substance interwoven. Do you have any empirical experience of form and substance in separation?
I argue that: form without substance is an unreachable abstraction; substance without form is an unintelligible chaos. This leads to the claim that form and substance are essential attributes of existence. — ucarr
In making your argument here, you’re presupposing God is in time and, moreover, that time WRT God is insuperable. You need firstly to establish the logical necessity of this supposition. If you can do this you will then be in position to establish the logical necessity of “God prior to time” being incoherent. — ucarr
"God" is one of the greatest mysteries of human existence. So if a philosopher seeks wisdom, then knowing about God would be a high priority.
— Metaphysician Undercover
What we "know about" (which?) "God" is that it is "the greatest mystery" – the (ultimate) inexplicable "answer" to every question that begs them all. Recognizing that "God" does not explain anything (re: mythos) is what motivated the Presocratic proto-scientists (physiologoi) in Ionia & Elea to speculate on rational explanations (logos) of nature (phusis) and our minds (nous). IMO, to seek explicable wisdom is incompatible with seeking inexplicable "God". — 180 Proof
Instead, the pursuit of God is a deeply personal and meaningful journey that is often based on faith and intuition rather than logic. — gevgala
What we "know about" (which?) "God" is that it is "the greatest mystery" – the (ultimate) inexplicable "answer" to every question that begs them all. Recognizing that "God" does not explain anything (re: mythos) is what motivated the Presocratic proto-scientists (physiologoi) in Ionia & Elea to speculate on rational explanations (logos) of nature (phusis) and our minds (nous). IMO, to seek explicable wisdom is incompatible with seeking inexplicable "God". — 180 Proof
I don't understand why the brain is so god damn important. When a person goes into shock, as due to blood loss, the first organ to be shut off is the brain (we feel faint and eventually pass out), — Agent Smith
Why have you replaced my word, "matter" with "substance"? — Metaphysician Undercover
Any act requires time to occur. — Metaphysician Undercover
that God is prior to time... is inconsistent with the idea of God having actual existence... — Metaphysician Undercover
My take on that would be that "the philosopher shouldn't seek God until he has access to objective epistemology pointing to the existence and ontology of God(s).The philosopher is not seeking God and so to say the philosopher will not find god is like saying the doctor will not find the bomb — Agent Smith
Let me outline a simple reason why a philosopher might not find God.
It is at the simplest a confusion of faith with belief.
If you ask a fan of Ipswich town FC. which is the greatest football club, they will tell you it is Ipswich Town FC. If you ask them about the next game, they will tell you that Ipswich will win. And if you point out that Ipswich almost invariably loses and often come bottom of the league, they will be hurt, but not dismayed. To be a fan is to be a loyal supporter and keep the faith in good times and bad times. To be an Ipswich fan is not wrong as a matter of fact, nor is it even a matter of fact that Ipswich will lose their next game.
It is not that the facts do not matter; the win is all important, and the loss is a heavy blow, but faith covers them both and amplifies them both. Faith is what makes these things matter at all. I am not a football fan, and I couldn't care less about Ipswich Town FC. I can therefore afford to be philosophical about their chances. But the only people who care about my analysis, are the Ipswich fans.
So if you are not a fan of god, you will always miss out on the excitement, and think yourself very wise. — unenlightened
In order to choose the reasonable Default position we only need to evaluate the claims... — Nickolasgaspar
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