A faithful muslim obeys and honors their religious authorities — Noble Dust
Now it feels like postmodernism, with its scepticism towards both Enlightenment universalism and the individual subject of experience, is precisely the kind of philosophy that suits modern society, with its fragmented public sphere and atomized populace. That is, it doesn’t seem like much of a challenge to the status quo, not significantly critical at all, despite sometimes seeming to be. — Jamal
EDIT: I just realized: in fact, self-critical Enlightenment has not only led to postmodernist anti-humanism and anti-universalism; it has also led to philosophers like Zizek, who (I think) has made it his mission to rehabilitate both universalism and the subject. So all is not lost! — Jamal
I don’t want to argue now against increased mastery, but can you explain why you think it coincides with moral improvement? — Jamal
Sure, I think of humans like that sometimes. I was really just referring to the suffering of human beings, usually caused by other human beings. War, oppression, and poverty, that kind of thing. That last paragraph in the OP was a rather grand and emotive way of making the point that we shouldn’t reduce those past evils (not that they are consigned to the past) to steps on a ladder to present or future happiness. — Jamal
I don’t think that’s what I’m doing. It’s more an examination of ideology, of the myth of inevitable betterment, which I think is implied in the unthinking description of unhappy conditions as primitive — Jamal
It's partly because increased means changes the calculus to tip the balance towards the moral choice. Such as how the abolishment of slavery in the West coincided with the industrialisation of the West. It's easier to say "let's not have slaves because slavery is wrong" when you've got machines to do the back-breaking labour you wanted to force onto someone else — Judaka
The promise of being able to do better is given to us by technological and economic improvement. The solutions we rely on today didn't exist before, and the problems we'll solve in the future will be solved with technology that doesn't exist today. — Judaka
The other half is that outcomes are not just the result of our will to be good. We might look at the state of policing and law and condemn our societies as unjust. But perhaps these are just the limitations of our organisational infrastructure, our laws, and our technology, we're just bad at these things. — Judaka
Why make such a point? Is Pinker guilty of reducing human suffering to mere rings in a ladder? — Judaka
Considering that poverty, conflict, disease and so on all predate not only civilisation itself, but human existence. I don't think it's that unreasonable to call those conditions primitive. Why are you sure the implication is that any unhappy condition is primitive? — Judaka
the gap between progress and Progress (between real advances and the myth of inevitable betterment over time). — Jamal
In the memories of many readers—and in the experience of those in less fortunate parts of the world—war, scarcity, disease, ignorance, and lethal menace are a natural part of existence. We know that countries can slide back into these primitive conditions, and so we ignore the achievements of the Enlightenment at our peril. — Steven Pinker
This isn’t claiming “inevitable betterment over time”. — praxis
I think that everyone is bound, at least to some extent, by their conditioning and ideologies and that this is inescapable. Maybe that's all that you're trying to say? — praxis
You forgot to mention that the purpose, meaning, and value within it are shared. — praxis
As for religion, it's as though you're only willing to acknowledge the positive aspects — praxis
If my ultimate authority is science or whatever, what happens if I were to defy its decrees? Would I be declared a heretic and ostracized by the scientific community and lose the sense of purpose, meaning, and value that I share with them? :fear: — praxis
They don't have religious authorities that compare to Christian ones. — frank
I don't know what your ultimate authority is. My guess is if you feel that you don't have one, you're just not aware of what it is. — Noble Dust
In the OP? I don’t see the claim. — praxis
about anti-enlightenment (I think that’s the term he uses) movements — praxis
Often, the worst way to become prisoner of a system is to have a dream that things may turn better, there is always the possibility of change. Because it is precisely this secret dream that keeps you enslaved to the system.
Could Enlightenment be that dream? — Tom Storm
It seems to me that atheists submit to authority in their thinking as much as religious people. — Jamal
Often, the worst way to become prisoner of a system is to have a dream that things may turn better, there is always the possibility of change. Because it is precisely this secret dream that keeps you enslaved to the system.
Could Enlightenment be that dream? — Tom Storm
It seems to me that atheists submit to authority in their thinking as much as religious people. — Jamal
That's why I was trying to emphasise difference rather than scoring either. Athiests (rationalists, empiricists...) are, quite fairly, bristled when told they 'just the same' as religious people in their belief systems, having made such strenuous efforts to try something different. The religious are again quite fairly, upset when told their approach is old-hat or the 'cause of all wars', or some such trope. — Isaac
My suspicion is that the loudest voices (which are often the minority) on either camp are distrustful of such a solution because each know their flaws and are afraid to have them exposed, but then I have a habit of psychologising everything so... — Isaac
There are many counterexamples. — Jamal
what framework do you use to determine if someone holds acceptable or unacceptable beliefs? — Tom Storm
Again, the word Islam means "Submission"; it's in their very fiber, it would appear. — Noble Dust
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