The discussion is re-framed so as to move on. — Banno
True. But, I doubt that Western science is seriously challenged by the notion of Eastern self-transcendence, since each person can define his own criteria, and keep his propositional knowledge to himself. But Transcendence of physical (space-time) limits would undermine some basic assumptions of classical empirical science. So, it's a no-go.But this insight can't be captured or described in propositional terms, as it is something that has to be actualised. The crucial error in Western culture is to attempt to reduce it to propositional knowledge on par with (but inferior to) empirical or natural science. — Wayfarer
Kant's polarities probably seemed to be more fundamental from a classical (Newtonian) physics perspective. But quantum physics has knocked holes in some watertight classical categories. So, it's understandable that one era's firm facts may tend to wilt over time. But, if you are trying to set-up logical oppositions, for philosophical purposes, can you make a better list? :smile:Each of Kant's antimonies looks to me to have been re-framed, and for the better, in the years after his demise. — Banno
In the book I'm currently reading, Fire In The Mind (1995), by science writer George Johnson, I came across several passages that deal with the contention between material Physics & mental Metaphysics. The book is generally about the Santa Fe Institute's*1 unsettling work on Information & Complexity. Are such forays into previously unexplored fringes of physical science (Chaos, Complexity, Cosmology, etc) leading us into Metaphysical error? What is the grammar of Information?Underestimating grammar's capacity to mislead is the source of metaphysics, don't you think? — Banno
In the book I'm currently reading, Fire In The Mind (1995), by science writer George Johnson, I came across several passages that deal with the contention between material Physics & mental Metaphysics. The book is generally about then new Santa Fe Institute's*1 unsettling work on Information & Complexity. Are such forays into previously unexplored fringes of physical science (Chaos, Complexity, Cosmology, etc) leading us into Metaphysical error? What is the grammar of Information?Underestimating grammar's capacity to mislead is the source of metaphysics, don't you think? — Banno
"Pushed up against this edge, science often retreats into platonism" — Gnomon
I doubt that Western science is seriously challenged by the notion of Eastern self-transcendence — Gnomon
Fire In The Mind (1995), by science writer George Johnson — Gnomon
Thing is, we are only impartial umpires for someone else’s judgements as expressed in his language. For each of us, for whatever our own reason concludes, there can be no impartiality, insofar as there are no disputants in a singular cognitive system. — Mww
And while it may be only the philosopher that dreams this shit up, every human is capable of it, assuming his sufficient rationality. Just because he seldom if ever does, doesn’t mean he can’t, and pursuant to the proper interest of philosophy, we want to know what we can do, along with the consequence of it, not what we can’t be bothered doing. — Mww
Yes, the "Meta" label has debatable baggage. Aristotle didn't classify his Nature topics in terms of falsifiability-by-experimentation, but he did divide his book between A. topics that were knowable by observation (Empirical) and B. topics that were knowable by reason & imagination (Theoretical). The latter later became known as "Metaphysics", and concerned concepts that are not directly knowable by the senses, and not verifiable by empirical methods. Most theories, even today, are endlessly arguable.As you say, that depends on what is to count as metaphysical. The term is used, and misused, quote broadly.
By way of an example, in the Popperian school ideas are metaphysical if they are not falsifiable. So the conservation laws, being neither provable by mere deduction nor falsifiable, are metaphysics. For Watkins this is no more than an evaluation of their logical structure, but others will take this as an insult, not wanting anything in physics to be metaphysical. The conservation laws are not derived only from logic, but from experimenting and theorising over considerable time. — Banno
Yes. I read the book almost 30 years ago, before the universal function of Information became a central focus of my personal philosophy. My current Enformationism worldview began only about 15 years ago. So, I'm hoping, the second time around, I'll absorb more of his historical & journalistic overview of post-quantum science. I especially appreciate his metaphorical writing style, that is easier for an amateur to picture, compared to the abstractions of typical technological teaching. As a trivial example, he refers to the Atomic Bomb, developed at Los Alamos, as "mathematical transubstantiation".Fire In The Mind (1995), by science writer George Johnson — Gnomon
Does look a very interesting read.
I again recommend Mind and the Cosmic Order, Charles Pinter. — Wayfarer
I'm not sure what you think I'm after. The point of this thread is not the authority, or lack thereof, of Kant's scientific worldview. I simply used his list of Antinomies as an outline for my own observations on Transcendence & Cosmology, and to elicit the opinions of others. His "quaint & silly" conception of physics is irrelevant for my purposes. However, if you find my own notions "quaint & silly", that can't be blamed on Kant, since I am not a Kant scholar or acolyte. Most of what I know of his philosophy comes from Wikipedia.↪Gnomon
Somewhat controversially, Kant took Newtonian physics and Euclidian geometry as fundamental. For a while, "Kant's conception looked quaint at best and silly at worst". I'm sceptical that Kant can provide what you are after. — Banno
What are your thoughts on existential Transcendence? — Gnomon
Is it irrational to imagine the unknowable "What-If" beyond the partly known "What-Is"? — Gnomon
Or is it reasonable for speculative Philosophers & holistic Cosmologists daring to venture into the "Great Beyond" where pragmatic Scientists "fear to tread"? — Gnomon
I looked at the website for Mind and the Cosmic Order, but it requires an "institutional subscription". — Gnomon
"the world would be mathematical if only reality didn't mess it up". — Gnomon
What are your thoughts on existential Transcendence? — Gnomon
You hinted, in your talk of metaphysics, at a broader interest in how this question is framed, and asked about "transcendence" being off-limits to philosophers and physicist. The Watkins article presents a logic that can be applied rationally to metaphysics by physicists and philosophers. Thought it might better suit your need than Kant.What I am "after" is an answer to the topical question : "How could something come from nothing?" — Gnomon
Thanks for the suggestions and link. But, I'm no better informed about Wittgenstein than Kant. My GI Bill college education had no place for Philosophy, except for Logic, and that was a math requirement. Ironically, most of my minimal philosophical knowledge comes from philosophical scientists (e.g. physicist Paul Davies). I find them easier to understand than most academic analytical philosophers. So, I suspect that Wittgenstein, like Kant, would be way above my pay grade. That's why I depend on dumbed-down Wikipedia for accessible tidbits of philosophy.You hinted, in your talk of metaphysics, at a broader interest in how this question is framed, and asked about "transcendence" being off-limits to philosophers and physicist. The Watkins article presents a logic that can be applied rationally to metaphysics by physicists and philosophers. Thought it might better suit your need than Kant.
My own approach at present would be more after Wittgenstein, as I think I have explained previously. The emphasis must be on the use to which a theory is put, to what can be done and what can be tested. Speculations are fine, provided they are understood as speculations, a parlour game. — Banno
it's hidden behind a paywall — Gnomon
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