• Epicero
    3
    Evidentialists believe that our beliefs should only come from justifiable evidence. Logic and reason alone are enough to form beliefs and seek truth. Many people think that reason or logic can not be used to come to certain beliefs about religion or God. Others think faith is a crucial component in forming beliefs about such matters. An evidentialist may argue that many mistake faith for poor reasoning. As humans, we reason our way toward our beliefs and form implicit arguments for such beliefs, even if we are unaware of them. Logic is a tool used as the backbone of many different fields we actively rely on in everyday life. It is the language of the universe. It seems mistaken that we would be unable to utilize this tool to come to the belief in God. I would argue that everyone reasons their way to faith, and It is merely a matter of difference in how well the reasoning is done. We cannot escape reasoning as we are rational creatures.
    We rely on logic to pursue truth. Why would it be any different in matters of religion? If logic aids us toward the truth, then we should use logic to pursue the truth. Logic aids us toward the truth. Therefore, we should use logic to pursue the truth. We can reason well to arrive at the conclusion that it is unethical to do action X. We then have faith in the principle established by that reasoning. In the same manner, we can have faith in God by reasoning well. The dispute on faith vs. reason seems to be a misunderstanding of the process we engage in when developing what we believe and have faith in. According to this argument, it is merely a semantic misunderstanding paired with the presupposed axioms we all utilize.
  • Wayfarer
    21k
    Greetings Epicero and welcome to the forum.

    I think your point makes sense on paper, so to speak. The problems arise when we ask what we refer to as evidence for the claims of religion.

    To take a step back, what are religions claiming? Obviously a vast question and not one to answer in a throw-away sentence or two. But I think we can agree that basic to it, is the relief from or ending of fear of death and suffering in all its forms. The Semitic religions speak in terms of salvation and Heaven, Eastern religions more in terms of liberation (mokṣa or Nirvāṇa). In both cases the promised good is beyond all suffering and the vicissitudes of life. In all of those religions, there are accounts of the miraculous, such as the resurrection, or of the Buddha's attainment of Nirvāṇa, which personify or depict the end to which the aspirant is to strive, and also the accounts of the sayings and doings of prophets, anecdotes and histories of prophetic visions and doings. They comprise the sacred texts of those religions.

    And now comes the problem. It's establishing the truth of those claims where evidence is in short supply. Secular culture will generally begin by assuming that revealed truth and sacred lore are not to be believed as a matter of principle. They will put such accounts to one side as mythological or traditional. So the question is if you were to try and meet the standards demanded by secular culture for the truth of those claims, without recourse to any of that body of sacred lore, then how would you do that? You can't conduct peer-reviewed laboratory studies of the central claims of Christianity, for example. You can conduct such studies of, for instance, the purported health and well-being benefits of meditation, but then are we still operating in the domain of religion at all?

    As you say, one can reasonably establish some moral tenets, such as, it is wrong to harm others, steal, or kill, and other such truisms. But such tenets don't by any means comprise the totality of any faith. At the end of all of it, the religions are making a claim - 'life eternal through faith in the Lord' or liberation from all the vicissitudes of existence. And without the case studies, so to speak, of the founders and examplars of those traditions, then I'm afraid you're grasping at straws.
  • Tom Storm
    8.5k
    In the same manner, we can have faith in God by reasoning well.Epicero

    What's an example of good reasoning which leads to theism? Are you thinking along the lines of Aquinas' five ways?

    If logic aids us toward the truth, then we should use logic to pursue the truth.Epicero

    What's your definition of truth?

    It seems mistaken that we would be unable to utilize this tool to come to the belief in God. I would argue that everyone reasons their way to faith, and It is merely a matter of difference in how well the reasoning is done. We cannot escape reasoning as we are rational creatures.Epicero

    It's not clear to me what you are arguing. Reasoning can get you anywhere you want to go, from Islam to scientism. The real trick is how we establish if the reasoning is sound.

    Secular culture will generally begin by assuming that revealed truth and sacred lore are not to be believed as a matter of principle.Wayfarer

    Yes, I guess that's why they call it secular. I'm not unsympathetic to secular culture - I have no good reason to think that the idea of a revealed truth or sacred law are of any use to anyone except, perhaps, as some aesthetic (not ascetic) mode of living, or as historical curiosities. Can you identify an example of a revealed truth so I can understand what you are thinking of?

    Secular culture like theistic culture can come in grotesque forms and distortions.
  • invicta
    595
    Faith and reason are two vastly different approaches to understanding and knowing the diety/God.

    Faith is an assumption on Gods existence, reason pertains to deduce his existence either through inference or deduction.

    These two different approaches might even arrive to the same conclusion, and science (aka: reason) does not make such bold claims but rather attempts to explain causes as effect of other causes going back to the Big Bang wherein it becomes unstuck.
  • Wayfarer
    21k
    Can you identify an example of a revealed truth so I can understand what you are thinking of?Tom Storm

    General term - applies to the Bible, Koran, Bhaghavad Gita, for example
  • Tom Storm
    8.5k
    General term - applies to the Bible, Koran, Bhaghavad Gita, for exampleWayfarer

    How would we know if they were revealed truth?
  • Wayfarer
    21k
    That’s the whole question isn’t it?
  • Tom Storm
    8.5k
    That’s the whole question isn’t it?Wayfarer

    Well for adherents it is not a question, it's a faith. But I wonder how people who are not enlightened themselves can recognise revealed wisdom in old books?
  • Wayfarer
    21k
    Well let’s see what the OP has to say about that.
  • public hermit
    18
    Evidentialists believe that our beliefs should only come from justifiable evidence. Logic and reason alone are enough to form beliefs and seek truth.Epicero

    Don't forget empirical experience. The problem with religious faith is that it can be experiential, and in that case, it is hard to argue against it. I might hallucinate that I see sheep skipping across the meadow, but no one can tell me my hallucination is false since that is,in fact, what I see. The problem is a lack of inter-subjective agreement regarding those skipping sheep. If a hundred of us saw it, that would be a bit harder to mark up to hallucination (not impossible but harder)..
  • Art48
    464
    I would argue that everyone reasons their way to faithEpicero
    Imagine a seven-year-old child who in a religion class has just learned that God is a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The child has faith in the trinity but I cannot see how reason has played any part in the child's faith. Can you?
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