How would it make you feel? — Benj96

Like a grown-up kid. :wink:

Ideals exist for a reason.

Re: simplifications, abstractions, information compressions ...

Realism[Reals] also exists for a reason.

Re: limits, constraints, complexifications ...

How do approach them?

"Ideals" can be used to make maps ("ideals") of the territory of "reals".

Usually as daydreams, occasionally as standards and only infrequently as plans.

How do you think we ought navigate such a dynamic?

Deflate "ideals" and do without them as much as we can in order not to occlude "reals" (i.e. not to mistake maps (universals, generalities) for the territory (individuals, particulars) or not to reify abstractions).

Like nature, refrain from allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good (enough).

true. I agree we should never replace "reals" with "ideals" as ideals are restrictive and inflexible. Perfectionism in an imperfect world. That can certainly do more harm than good if it creates self-righteous arrogance and intolerance.

However I also think "reals"or realism ought to never lose sight of what is ideal or at least" something better" to strive for. Because if we stop striving, we simply reduce ourselves to the least ideal reality possible - barbarianism.

You're using "ideal" in a colloquial sense as synonymous with aspirational and I replied to it in a philosophical sense as epistemological. Nevermind. Disregard my remarks.

If you were told that no matter how hard you tried, you will never ever reach perfection, that flaw is proverbially "a neccesary evil", that perfection and imperfection are a mutually dependent dynamic.

How would it make you feel? — Benj96

I don't care about perfection. I care about optimization -- for example at work, if I'm optimized (and I have benchmarks as a guide), then I'm content. In anything I do, if the requirement is perfection, I'd like to know what would it take. If I have to give my life, then I move on and switch to another activity.

Unfortunately, life is too short for perfection. If we have a thousand years to live, then yes, we can devote every waking hours to this or that endevour. But for mortals like us, there are equally good things to do.

If you were told that no matter how hard you tried, you will never ever reach perfection, that flaw is proverbially "a neccesary evil", that perfection and imperfection are a mutually dependent dynamic.

How would it make you feel? — Benj96

I don't think I've ever lived in a world where this is a question that concerns me. 'Perfection' is a word. I just do things to the best of my capacity and move on. I can't imagine perfection even being on the table. It might concern me if I was a piano soloist or some kind of craftsperson, but even then...

Ideals exist for a reason. Realism also exists for a reason. How do approach them? — Benj96

I reflect on actions I take sometimes to see if they are consistent with my beliefs and practices, but I don't get too preoccupied by this. I am a pragmatist (in the non-philosophical sense).

I reflect on actions I take sometimes to see if they are consistent with my beliefs and practices, but I don't get too preoccupied by this. I am a pragmatist (in the non-philosophical sense). — Tom Storm

Would you say then that you're more of a realist? Pragmatism and realism being highly inter-related. Idealism and imagination on the other hand being a whole scope of interest where pragmatics take a secondary role.

Don't know. If I am a realist and a pragmatist, I am so in the non-philosophical sense. I think life is a messy business and we mostly do the best we can. I think human thought and values are expressions of our creative imagination; some useful some not. I am more interested in the arts than the sciences.

How do you determine what perfection is?

Perfection is not something outside of a context. If you are a pretty good woodworker, you could be better if you did some things differently. Some of that is getting some events under more control. Some of that is accepting a process that one permits rather than planning. What is that element? The artist cannot get in front of the art.

And what about matters like love? The call to be perfect in love is not about technique. One knows when they are fucking it up in pursuit of whatever. It seems unlikely that awareness is based upon some projected success or failure.

How do you determine what perfection is? — Tom Storm

At its most basic, I would characterise perfection, the ideal or "paradise" state as one of universal kinship.

Total benevolence towards oneself and towards others in the pursuit of a personal identity/self actualization, knowledge, diversity and abundance of experience, beauty, entertainment, health, love and contentedness.

This is reflected in the virtues: effort or discipline; contemplation - of self and other, perserverence, patience/ listening, understanding/consideration, wisdom, good intentions/kindness, charity/generosity, tolerance and forgiveness.

If everyone nurtured within themselves and others such qualities, I fail to see how the world would not begin to "self-correct" towards a more ideal state of existence.

Conversely; laziness, ignorance, arrogance, self-centered thinking, impatience, intolerance, selfishness/greed, resentment, blame/grudge-holding and hatred. These things bring us many steps away from something more ideal than the current state of affairs.

In the end, when virtually any action can be justified or rationalised however one feels, then "choice" or freewill is the only thing one has to sway in either direction. Towards the ideal, or away from it.

You are either the center of your actions (responsible) or you are off center of your actions (scapegoating/projecting them onto others and playing the helpless wronged victim of an unfair existence).

Or in other words, you may either lead by example, or follow the example of others. Where does your trust lie?

What do you believe is perfection?

Thanks for your explanation.

no worries.