In recognition of the possibility, that it was mostly my mind jumps, rather than the contributions of Vera Mont or @Athena that caused what you considered a thread worthy of maintaining its position as a mainline thread, getting sent to the lounge, where other TPF members have opined, is the place threads go to die. Which at least, has been shown, is not always true.
Perhaps my 'sorry' was more of a recognition of a possibility that 'influenced' @Jamal's action, rather than an aspect of my thought processes that I sometimes regret. I consider my 'butterfly mind,' a great asset in the main. — universeness

I want to assure you of your value. I have noticed I am writing with your influence on my mind. I say something and wonder if it would be agreeable with you and I have a desire for that to be so. For me this is progress. You and others have expanded my mind and I agree with the mods that what is happening here is not technically philosophy as our technologically correct times judge philosophy. But I think Socrates and Plato would approve.

I am an example of such a teacher, who took early retirement at 55, because I was burnt out because of the education system in Scotland. — universeness

That is so sad. I have never thought of Socrates or Plato getting burnt out as teachers but they did not attempt to educate anyone younger than 30 years old. Being a school teacher today would be so different from education as they saw it.

It might help if you explain why you got burnt out. I am curious and I think it is something we need to seriously explore. My grandmother was teaching her whole until Alzheimer's destroyed her ability to do so somewhere around 80 years old. Her generation of teachers believed they were defending democracy in the classroom by preparing the young to be the best they could be. Their job was to help each child discover his/her interests and talents. I love the older school books that I have. This is why I write. Teachers are so valuable and we should not tolerate conditions that burn them out. Please, tell me more.

You and the Universe make me regret I have been too busy to carefully read and participate in the discussion.

Please be patient with me. It is past bedtime:cry:

Everything has become about money and war. Today's education is not the education children once had. We educated our young to be well-rounded individuals and to have good moral judgment without religion. I promise I will do my best to return as soon as I can. I think what we are doing here is very important. I am about saving the world and that is a hard job when I am all by myself. It is great to not be alone with my mission.

I appreciate your kind words Athena.
When I started at the classroom face, my enthusiasm was at 100%. I was a showman and over the years of my teaching career, I had so many fantastic connections with individual pupils that have left me with a conviction, that my career did make a positive difference for many pupils. But I much more remember the failures, than the successes. I have kept and still read, individual letters I got from parents and pupils about how I helped, but they reduced in number, as the years went by, because I became more and more fatigued and challenged, as I got older and they kept piling on the pressure.
In Scotland, they brought in such initiatives as 'Higher still,' 'Curriculum for excellence' and 'inclusion.'
The best of these was 'Inclusion,' but it was also the hardest to deal with, as they did not resource it, nor did they bring in the extra expertise required in the classroom. I was a great fan of inclusion but I could not achieve it's goals with the resources and support I was given.

I remember one year where I had a mixed ability standard grade class of 20 kids in front of me.
One pupil was partial hearing, so I had to wear a special mike, that connected to an earpiece the child wore. I had to remember when to switch it on or off, during a lesson. If it was on when a staff member came into speak to me, during a lesson, then the pupil would pick up the private chat. If I had it on, when sitting beside another pupil, helping them understand a bit of the lesson they were struggling with, then the partial hearing pupil would pick up the conversation and have to indicate to me, that this was disturbing their concentration.
Another pupil had to have all their printed material on blue paper and I had to remember to set my whiteboard projections in the way, that allowed that pupil to see the material projected on the whiteboard, effectively.
Another pupil was a 'selective mute,' and she would only talk/respond/communicate to me or anyone else, when she chose or felt able to. So I could rarely confirm if she understood the lesson or what I wanted her to do next.
In that same class, I had two dyslexic kids, a pupil with Asperger Syndrome and a pupil with Motor Neurone Disease who had a walking frame and a bad speech impediment.
This was not the only challenging class I had on my timetable. My lesson prep time went through the roof. I was exhausted all the time. I did not ever get a proper lunchtime, as I had pupils up every day at lunch, as I was trying to give some of those who were falling behind in class, a little extra help. The work I had to do after I left the school for the day, was ridiculous. I had a classroom assistant for two periods out of the three that I took that mixed ability class. A lovely person, but not a subject specialist, and not particularly trained to help significantly with special need pupils.
All my efforts meant that those mixed ability classes produced good results and I got a lot of praise from senior management but the cost was eventually my own total burn out. As the years went by I could not keep up that level of effort, so my class results began to drop off. I knew I was a spent force and it was time to go.

I advocate for working towards the further dilution of all tribalism, all notions of creed and all notions of national identity and traditional/classical presentations of what constitutes a successful civilisation/society. — universeness

Thanks for your reply! :smile:

As for the identities you mention are deeply ingrained in our bodies and minds, so it’d be difficult to actively dilute or dissolve.
And it would be met with the immediate resistance of a cornered animal.

However, I’d agree that this aspect of identity tribalism and politics has become overly large.
We are more than our nationality, color, etc.
And simplifying everything politically to Red vs Blue (in the USA for example) is so boring basic and dumbed-down, it’s difficult to even know how to interact with the ‘other side’.
One has a better chance of having a conversation about the history of art with a person in the stands during a football game / match.

All historical civilisations have failed. We need to teach why, not just teach the dates and what events occurred on those dates. — universeness

This may be quibbling over definitions, but I’d say that not all civilizations prior to the current global civilization (aka Western Civilization II: The Takeover) have failed.
Firstly, simply ceasing to exist doesn’t exactly equate with failure, not completely. (Might be a whole other topic).

But more importantly, some extant tribal cultures have been going for several thousand years.
Some may hastily dismiss these as ‘not examples of a civilization’, but I think that is too narrow a definition.
Just because these cultures may not have become colonizers and taken over large swathes of territory doesn’t diminish their feat of continuing survival.
These cultures, as different as they are from ours, may have something we can learn about survival… even if the people were in an ‘oral culture’, not a written one.

In fact, their existence may show the limits of ‘imperial overreach’.
Although current world power is clever and has deviously improved upon the old imperial game plan.
The new plan: don’t take over smaller countries (that’s too costly), just go in with tanks / bribes / propaganda and take whatever you want secure the needed resources for your country.

I advocate for a united species, no more nations, one planet, global governance with a resource based global economy that has automation at its core and good stewardship of this planet, as one of it's prime directives. The removal of money as a means of exchange and the removal of the money trick and religion, as the main means by which a nefarious few, can gain control over a divided and ill-informed global mass of people. — universeness

That sounds good, a huge improvement over ‘poverty with a sugar-coating of bling’ lol.
But… the devil is in the details. (Actually the Devil, if you read the Alt-Right’s literal demonization of everything 6 inches to the left of them).

As you are aware, there’s a long-standing suspicion of anything that smells of ‘one-world government’ amongst many people, most (but not all) on the right-wing.
Until it was abundantly clear that any talk of ‘global unity’ wasn’t the wolf in sheep’s clothing of world authoritarianism, even progressives and new-agers will be skeptical.

But to live in a world like the one described in the song ‘Imagine’ by John Lennon? Sure! :victory:

Thank you. I can remember that question from my childhood as my mother could only work for low women's wages and was paid less than a man hired to do the same job. Back in the day, our economic structure favored men. I was somewhat confused as I thought poverty was shameful but we all had an opportunity to get an education. On the other hand, that did not include equality at the college and career level. I was totally unaware of any assistance programs and wondered, how caring was our society? As an adult, I have heard other nations are doing much better. I have not experienced other nations so I am not sure but I still wonder about what are the possibilities.

Growing up in constant insecurity and feeling like a less-valued member of society left me wounded and in my old age I wonder about these things even more because now I can look back and see how the condition of a child's life shapes the child and the problems are passed on generation to generation. Christianity has not made a big difference. In fact, governments intentionally used it to make some people believe poverty is tolerable and even virtuous. So is there something better? — Athena

:up: Thanks for your reply! :smile:

I was going to respond by saying something like “this (situation you described) is completely unacceptable in an affluent First-World country… ”.
But that sounds a bit hollow and callous to my ears for some reason…
Would it be acceptable anywhere? Why?

Our Mother Culture’s* answer: “It is difficult to accept, and so very tragic [wipes away a tear].
But we must face Reality, and see how the sausage gets made. However, such suffering is inevitable for those on the primative low rung. Only the strong can stomach the harsh reality.
(We didn’t make the rules! Darwin did). But wait! There is an upside! If only those (natural but backward) people join us in our technological journey to the heavens, then they too will get a delicious piece of the pie!” (A tiny piece, mostly crust lol).

But what are the consequences of following such thinking?
(For it is meant to be followed, and definitely not just theoretical).

Unfortunately, I’m still trying to rinse my brain clear of the persistence of our cultural propaganda, an indoctrination that’s even deeper than party politics. (Deeper because it is uncontested by both parties, and even by most of the ‘fringe’).
There’s an ignorant (and thus quite insistent and loud) though unwanted voice that lingers in my mind, which tells me that those people in distant lands living in makeshift huts are actually just squatters on the property of Civilization.
Not unlike the squirrels living in an apple orchard: tolerated as long as they don’t get in the way of progress.

Then I realize that I may not agree with every persistent thought that pops up in my head.
I think I have more brain rinsing to do, to hopefully get rid of the brainwashing…
(it’s a work in progress).

* ‘Mother Culture’ being a term I find useful, one used by Daniel Quinn to personify the cultural indoctrination that lives in our unconscious and carries immense influence.

But more importantly, some extant tribal cultures have been going for several thousand years.
Some may hastily dismiss these as ‘not examples of a civilization’, but I think that is too narrow a definition. — 0 thru 9

On my part, it's not a case of dismissing tribal cultures, but rather of differentiating tribal cultures from urban ones. What people usually consider 'civilized' begins with city states with a hierarchical social structure, work specialization, standing armies, currency and written laws. These civilizations have a pressure to accommodate growing populations and material consumption through aggressive expansion.
The need and greed for more land and resources invariably means subjugating 'other' peoples. If the conquered tribe is small enough in numbers, it is assimilated over time. If it's a substantial enough population to keep its own traditions alive, it remains an unsightly lump under the carpet for the rest of the empire's life. Of course, much depends on how the minority is treated. Celtic and Germanic mercenaries fared well in Rome; Mesopotamian slaves were distinctly unhappy.

Imperialism, like capitalism, demands continuous growth. This always ends in internal corruption, schism and overreach. That alone may result in the collapse of an empire, but the collapse is usually hastened by the advent of the next empire forming at its flanks, waiting for an opportunity.

What happened to US politics is not in any sense tribal. A political faction, a bunch of yahoos united by nothing more than license to oppress another group, a deluded minority of underachievers dreaming of reclaimed privilege, those with actual privilege too jealous to share - these are not tribes.

What happened to US politics is not in any sense tribal. A political faction, a bunch of yahoos united by nothing more than license to oppress another group, a deluded minority of underachievers dreaming of reclaimed privilege, those with actual privilege too jealous to share - these are not tribes. — Vera Mont

:100: :up:

Much respect.

On my part, it's not a case of dismissing tribal cultures, but rather of differentiating tribal cultures from urban ones. What people usually consider 'civilized' begins with city states with a hierarchical social structure, work specialization, standing armies, currency and written laws. These civilizations have a pressure to accommodate growing populations and material consumption through aggressive expansion. — Vera Mont

:up: Thanks very much for your reply! :smile:

That makes perfect sense. Urban cultures definitely have unique features to them.
Our entire world seems to be urban now, for better or worse.

The Mayan civilization started as tribal, grew to a large urban population.
Then when factors were no longer favorable for large cities, many people left to return to smaller communities.
The Spanish conquest closed the deal, as I understand it.

If ‘pre-modern’ peoples are not dismissed as quaint, bloodthirsty, ignorant, or impossibly saintly, then there exists a chance that their way of life will be studied and taken seriously.
What things did they know that could help us?
For starters: how to survive and grow and live sustainably for over 1 million years (or 2 million if counting Homo Habilis).

We would have to adapt the knowledge to our circumstances, of course.
Our wonderful imaginations would be of immense usefulness.
We could ask ourselves “what are the most important things in life, and how could we keep them and not selfishly treat the earth like our own personal cookie jar”.
We could drop our aggressiveness towards anyone or anything that gets in the way of our ‘progress’.
Maybe they are giving us a message we’d best listen to, like “slow down, what is the hurry?”

The existing tribal cultures are not yesterday’s news, they are tomorrow’s hope.

If it's a substantial enough population to keep its own traditions alive, it remains an unsightly lump under the carpet for the rest of the empire's life. — Vera Mont

Agreed! (And nice catchy metaphor, too).

Imperialism, like capitalism, demands continuous growth. This always ends in internal corruption, schism and overreach. That alone may result in the collapse of an empire, but the collapse is usually hastened by the advent of the next empire forming at its flanks, waiting for an opportunity.

What happened to US politics is not in any sense tribal. A political faction, a bunch of yahoos united by nothing more than license to oppress another group, a deluded minority of underachievers dreaming of reclaimed privilege, those with actual privilege too jealous to share - these are not tribes. — Vera Mont

Yes… unfortunately yes. The Dominator Culture theory mentioned before lives on unimpeded.
As a whole, we seem to be reaching some sort of wall or limit, on multiple levels.
We can run the outdated old playbook of domination: against the planet, animals, women, minorities, the poor, the ‘primitive’, etc etc until the Earth resembles a zombie movie.

Or we can emerge from our cocoon with wisdom and live freely, allowing others to do the same… because they are our future friends, and friends are much more interesting than victims.

Thank you. I loved being a teacher and I remain so angry, that a human invention such as money and how it is employed, makes a great concept such as inclusion, be almost impossible to implement effectively. It could work, and it could work well, but not by just a single subject specialist teacher, in a classroom where a team with the skills that match the needs of the pupils in that particular class is required. Either that or automated systems that can become all the specialised assistants a single subject specialist would need, to cater effectively to the mixed ability levels and any special needs of the pupils in front of them.

If ‘pre-modern’ peoples are not dismissed as quaint, bloodthirsty, ignorant, or impossibly saintly, then there exists a chance that their way of life will be studied and taken seriously.
What things did they know that could help us? — 0 thru 9

Quite a lot, seems like. And have, including the use of corn, yams, peanuts and tomatoes.

Tribal societies are extraordinarily diverse and there’s a lot to learn from them. When tribal peoples have secure rights to their land and the ability to choose how they live, they tend to be among the fairest, happiest and most equal societies on the planet. Here are 5 simple lessons:

there is substantial scholarship on the influence the founding fathers derived from Native American governing systems and philosophies.

Indigenous Peoples’ contributions are essential in designing and implementing solutions for ecosystems. Traditional knowledge and heritage can contribute to environmental assessments and sustainable ecosystem management.

This is part one in a series of articles about restorative justice practices of Native American, First Nation and other indigenous people of North America.

I loved being a teacher — universeness

Me too, for some little whiles. I was lucky enough to do it in informal situations. Pottery class in a summer camp for children with cancer; ESL for adults at night school, practical instruction for tech students in the laboratory. Way more rewarding than the daily slog and paperwork of a classroom!
Stratified civilizations have to regiment every aspect of life, lest the citizens break formation and forget their place.

Me too, for some little whiles. I was lucky enough to do it in informal situations. Pottery class in a summer camp for children with cancer; ESL for adults at night school, practical instruction for tech students in the laboratory. Way more rewarding than the daily slog and paperwork of a classroom! — Vera Mont

Did you not also experience anger that something as pathetic as money, dictated the availability and quality of education for any individual human?
It's akin to how I feel about images of starving children on the TV or charity adverts like, 'we need your money, as these people are dying, for lack of this particular medicine, which human science can make easily.'
When my first response is, 'well f****** give them what they need,' I just hate those counter responses that start 'well, it's more complicated than that ........'
Just 'f****** lies and f****** excuses for unacceptable behaviour.
WE CAN feed everyone and WE CAN well educate everyone, etc, etc, and give all current 8 billion of us a better life, than most of that number are experiencing since they woke up today.
But the big feed pipe is blocked by big lumps of utter bullshit. These blocks need clearing.
That's the common ground we should all be starting together from. To me, that's what's important, not the semantic arguments between members of the masses.
Get 10 democratic socialists in a room and they will over-debate all issues.
Get 10 nefarious b******* in a room and the very quick, very base unison between them, is something the 10 democratic socialists need to learn how to achieve, as quickly and as efficiently, as them.
K.I.S.S.

:flower: :grin: :up:

But the big feed pipe is blocked by big lumps of utter bullshit. These blocks need clearing. — universeness

I’m trying to visualize/think about whether there are ANY ‘pipes’ (flow of material, energy, information etc) that are NOT blocked. Maybe some that are only partially blocked… :confused:

Ergo, AGI–>ASI is needed to produce the post-scarcity civilization that we scarcity-addled hyperglandular primates apparently cannot produce for ourselves. :victory: :mask:

that we scarcity-addled hyperglandular primates apparently cannot produce for ourselves. — 180 Proof

WE CAN! If the masses would just occupy the common ground between us all. Perhaps we do need something like AGI, to help us make the required transitions, to reach a point, such as your described 'post scarcity.' I don't think we need a vastly reduced population however, or to break up back into small tribal or epicurean groupings first. You are correct imo, that 'something significant,' has to change soon, or else we will all have to suffer a Trumpian style future horror first. Which will prove to be yet another historical waste of time, another blind alley that enough humans, may well be duped enough, to dart down, before enough of us see the actual changes that are needed, and are soooooooo long overdue imo.

BS remover, is now the most important job we all have. BS creator's are the common enemy.

If the masses would just occupy the common ground between us all. — universeness

:rofl:

Mate, that proletarian ship has sailed (and sank) a long while ago. (vide T. Veblen et al). The carcass of :victory: :flower: was ripe by Spring '68 ... we've just been loitering in its shallow grave ever since (vide S. Beckett, J. Baldwin or T. Ligotti). What's that? "Doomster speak!" No, just one latter-day primate all-too-soberly gesticulating this old blues to another :monkey:

Wow what a story that was. My heart is heavy to think everyone's good intentions came to such a sad ending because they all forgot one thing. To take care of you and check with you before you were so burnt out that quitting was the only option. The people making the decisions were not getting the feedback they needed to make good decisions. Hope I remember your story and think of it when I speak about education in my community.

It is not enough to want the very best for children. We must also take good care of the teachers. I think today, in other professions as well, we are demanding too much of the people doing the job. Our Industrial age was dehumanizing and high tech has increased the problem, and there is a pushback, that is unfortunately burnt out people quitting. I don't know how things are going where you live but we can not find enough people to do the jobs that need to be done and this is matters worse!

Culturally, what is driving this problem, and might we improve how we treat each other? I am thinking of the class in public administration that I took, that taught when someone is over stressed the job needs to be divided and more people added. But if everyone is driven to cut cost and demands more and more of workers, things can go wrong. What can we build into our culture that might prevent that?

What's that? "Doomster speak!" No, just one latter-day primate all-too-soberly gesticulating this old blues to another — 180 Proof

We might surprise you yet, ya auld doomster, pessimist, curmudgeon. :joke:

:up: Thanks for your reply! :smile:

I was going to respond by saying something like “this (situation you described) is completely unacceptable in an affluent First-World country… ”.
But that sounds a bit hollow and callous to my ears for some reason…
Would it be acceptable anywhere? Why?

Our Mother Culture’s* answer: “It is difficult to accept, and so very tragic [wipes away a tear].
But we must face Reality, and see how the sausage gets made. However, such suffering is inevitable for those on the primative low rung. Only the strong can stomach the harsh reality.
(We didn’t make the rules! Darwin did). But wait! There is an upside! If only those (natural but backward) people join us in our technological journey to the heavens, then they too will get a delicious piece of the pie!” (A tiny piece, mostly crust lol).

But what are the consequences of following such thinking?
(For it is meant to be followed, and definitely not just theoretical).

Unfortunately, I’m still trying to rinse my brain clear of the persistence of our cultural propaganda, an indoctrination that’s even deeper than party politics. (Deeper because it is uncontested by both parties, and even by most of the ‘fringe’).
There’s an ignorant (and thus quite insistent and loud) though unwanted voice that lingers in my mind, which tells me that those people in distant lands living in makeshift huts are actually just squatters on the property of Civilization.
Not unlike the squirrels living in an apple orchard: tolerated as long as they don’t get in the way of progress.

Then I realize that I may not agree with every persistent thought that pops up in my head.
I think I have more brain rinsing to do, to hopefully get rid of the brainwashing…
(it’s a work in progress).

* ‘Mother Culture’ being a term I find useful, one used by Daniel Quinn to personify the cultural indoctrination that lives in our unconscious and carries immense influence. — 0 thru 9

What you just said is fundamentally the same as what universeness said. We can not have quality lives unless we meet our human needs and that means more than money. If a person works under conditions that are physically and mentally exhausting more money will not resolve the problem. I always volunteered because in general volunteers are treated better the paid workers. We seem to live a slave owner mentality, of "I paid you and you better meet my demands".

My head is screaming we must replace autocratic industry with a democratic model. All the workers need to feel appreciated and we need to respect the whole person by empowering the individual to say what would improve the working conditions and therefore manifest a better outcome for everyone.

I attended workshops teaching the democratic model for supervisors and was blown away by realizing how the democratic model of Industry would greatly improve the quality of our families because the democratic model treats everyone very well and the worker who learns how to treat others well will bring this home to the family.

Did you not also experience anger that something as pathetic as money, dictated the availability and quality of education for any individual human? — universeness

Oh, sure, since I can remember. When my grandmother urged me to finish all my dinner (she was too generous with the helpings); think of the starving children who would be grateful for it, I wanted to go find those starving children and let her feed them. When I got older and understood why they were starving, I knew some adults someplace were screwing up, big time.

But since then, what with charities collecting everywhere and volunteers going everywhere, all of you Pollies have been reassuring me that every day in every way we're getting better and better. Just wait another century of progress and everyone will be fine. Thing is, the Doomsday Clock won't wait.

The spectre of scarcity is a crock. Today it's artificially and selectively created, through agencies that promote overpopulation (state religions, mainly, over long periods) to keep the peons fighting over scraps, while the prosperous waste

Approximately US$1 trillion of food is either lost or wasted annually – an amount that accounts for nearly one-third of the world's food. According to the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), ending food waste would preserve enough food to feed two billion people.

and the wealthy convert resources+man-hours into useless luxury.

I'm reading a novel right now Awaking Hope about a Zeitgeist inspired world order.

That post is super great. I want to add to what you said that Athenians thought democracies must have a small population. Here is another important thing about using a democratic model for Industry, the size of our population is huge and we can not have the democratic experience without belonging to organizations that are democratic.

Ouch, words fail me. How can we have anything but a slave mentality we are paid labor and nothing more. This is very much about how many people live in our city. If we know everyone in town we have a human experience with everyone. That is not so in large cities where we work to avoid each other because our numbers are overwhelming. Biologically we are limited to knowing a few people intimately and a few more on the friend level, then the associate level, and maybe 600 people on the tribal level.
At the tribal level we can know everyone's name and who the person is related to but not much more.

In our large cities, we are lonely people in the crowd. We live as strangers to each other and hopefully, we share some values and ideas about appropriate behavior. Culture gives a sense of safety as our lives are full of strangers, and if someone violates that culture, we may instinctively pull away and avoid that person. If we grow up with too much adversity our primary goal is to avoid people and new situations. Poverty can destroy hope and without hope, we go into avoidance behavior. Now make money the bottom line and further marginalize the less competitive people, and well- the social problems grow like bacteria and petri dish. Relying on laws and law enforcers for social control, will not work!!!

When we are living alone with strangers, our biological moral system goes out of order. We all know we can steal anything we want from the big box stores because they have plenty of money and our stealing doesn't hurt them. I am being sarcastic as I try to make a point. There is honor among thieves because of the personal associations. If I know you and become aware of hurting you, I will feel bad but I don't know you and don't have to deal with hurting you, then what I want is all that matters. What I am saying is we are part of something bigger than ourselves, but if we don't feel we belong and do not have personal caring relationships, there is going to be trouble.

We can not have the democratic experience without belonging to a group that provides that experience.
When speaking of an experience, words are not adequate. How responsible do we feel for our family, our place of employment, our community, our nation? If we do not feel responsible, we are not having the democratic experience.

In our large cities, we are lonely people in the crowd. We live as strangers to each other and hopefully, we share some values and ideas about appropriate behavior. — Athena

That is not necessarily the case. This was a run-down, trouble-prone housing project near the hospital where I worked. It got better since that time. There are many community gardens in big cities in the US, too. As gardening brings people together, so can an industry or reclamation project.

Any neighbourhood can become a community; given the resources and freedom, any well-functioning neighbourhood can become a self-governed political unit. One of the key factors to involve everyone, down to the toddler old enough to remember which weed to pull and big enough to carry a thermos, in the planning and in the work, to the extent of their capability, as well the benefits. Not to do things for other people, but with other people.

In my early career, I had good relations with line management and senior management, all the way up to local authority level. As the years went by and I understood a lot more about those who wielded authority within our education system, I became far braver and argumentative at our weekly departmental meetings.

I would describe what pupil A, or B needed or what class A or B required, to reach the educational standard the course I was delivering, was supposed to be offering, to each child in front of me, in the classroom.
I would be listened to, complimented for my insight and suggestions, and then (more often than not,) be told why they could not provide what I asked, but they could offer this or that (normally something far short of what was needed).

So I would try to compensate for the shortfalls and succeed or fail to a greater degree, depending on how much of my own, reserves of time, energy and ingenuity I could muster.
I am not fully blaming every member of management I ever dealt with, as I know they had finite resources and timetable, staff and curricular considerations they could do little about, but there were many, who were more interested in their own career than they were in the educational progress of every child in the school. So they would not 'rock the boat' of those who were senior in authority to them for the sake of the pupils. My promotion prospects were quickly destroyed, due to my 'honest' interactions with parents during parents evenings.

Senior management became more and more concerned regarding what I would tell parents, because they would have to face the fallout. I remember once, when I told a parent why their daughter was not doing so well in the Higher computing class that I only took 1 period a week. I explained that it was because that class was getting supply teachers for most of the time, instead of a subject specialist, and my one period a week with them was not enough to make up the slack. I said that to the 5 parents who had the same concerns regarding their child, in that class. All 5 went to see the deputy head master or the head master, to complain.
One turned out to be a well established lawyer, who I think was able to scare the headmaster significantly. By the end of that week, a fully qualified computing teacher was found to take that class for all 4 of its weekly periods, until the absent member of staff (who was going to be absent for 4 months) returned. The pupil work in that class improved dramatically as a result, but I had to endure yet another meeting with the deputy and the headmaster, whereby they tried, yet again, to explain to me, how what I was doing at parents evenings was not helpful to them and that I did not appreciate the toxicity that existed at the local authority level, that they had to deal with.

What can we build into our culture that might prevent that? — Athena

I think the answer lies somewhere between more help for those on the front line, from AI based expert systems and the establishment of more robust grievance procedures when you don't agree with the actions or decisions of your line managers. I think this would apply to all service based employment.

all of you Pollies — Vera Mont

What are Pollies?

Positive psychology https://positivepsychology.com/pollyanna-principle/
Pollyanna

My promotion prospects were quickly destroyed, due to my 'honest' interactions with parents during parents evenings. — universeness

That sure resonates! I was lucky in my regular job, too: hospital laboratories are better managed and have better atmosphere than many other workplaces. But my SO was a software architect who would talk back to managers with their own career agendas about their counterproductive decisions, and was labelled "not a team player" - which in Corporateland is akin to a yellow armband. In the end, he had no viable option but to go independent at one third the income of contract work. Happiest decision he ever made.
Nobody should have a job. Jobs destroy integrity, self-respect, family, community and democracy. As long as humankind is divided into employers and employed, masters and minions, democracy cannot flourish.

From Wiki:
Pollyanna is a 1913 novel by American author Eleanor H. Porter, considered a classic of children's literature. The book's success led to Porter soon writing a sequel, Pollyanna Grows Up (1915). Eleven more Pollyanna sequels, known as "Glad Books", were later published, most of them written by Elizabeth Borton or Harriet Lummis Smith. Further sequels followed, including Pollyanna Plays the Game by Colleen L. Reece, published in 1997. Due to the book's fame, "Pollyanna" has become a byword for someone who, like the title character, has an unfailingly optimistic outlook.

I reject the comparison. The actions I propose and the improvement they would bring are imo, very plausible, possible, practical and progressive. We keep getting it wrong until we get it right, yes?. The fact that the human race still has to 'get it right,' but is capable of doing so, is not an optimism, that is comparable with a child character such as polyanna. I don't think it would be accurate to compare your position, to that of the character chicken licken, would it?

But my SO was a software architect who would talk back to managers with their own career agendas about their counterproductive decisions, and was labelled "not a team player" — Vera Mont

Yep, sounds familiar, but I think a grievance procedure could be established that allowed better balance to exist between the authority of line managers and the wishes/wants/needs/concerns of workers.
There is a fairly decent grievance procedure within the Scottish teaching system, that allows a teacher to take out a grievance against a line manager. But it often results, at best, in an apology if the grievance is upheld, rather than a reversal of any decision made. So, mush tweaking is required. But at least a half-decent system already exists, at least within the Scottish Education system.

Nobody should have a job. Jobs destroy integrity, self-respect, family, community and democracy. As long as humankind is divided into employers and employed, masters and minions, democracy cannot flourish. — Vera Mont

Well, I would certainly prefer it if people could contribute to society by doing what they love doing most, and I think that should always be the goal but we should all share in the crappy jobs as well, until they can be fully automated.

I reject the comparison. The actions I propose and the improvement they would bring are imo, very plausible, possible, practical and progressive. — universeness

It wasn't a comment on your proposal; it was on your view of achieved and achievable progress. Anyway, some psychologists consider that attitude healthy. My comparison referred to

In fact, there is a bias that is deeply rooted and pervasive throughout all cultures and all people, and it helps us to be happier, healthier, and more connected with others. It’s called the positivity bias, or the “Pollyanna Principle.”

(first citation) and added the second in case you didn't know its origin.

I don't think it would be accurate to compare your position, to that of the character chicken licken, would it? — universeness

Absolutely not! I will accept Chicken Little or Henny Penny
Which turns out to be the more accurate prediction, we will probably not find out. (If we're lucky)

Well, I would certainly prefer it if people could contribute to society by doing what they love doing most, and I think that should always be the goal but we should all share in the crappy jobs as well, until they can be fully automated. — universeness

The workd that needs to be is what needs to be done. Self-employed people do all of it, direction and scutwork.