Now you're the one making a claim. Has it been established to be impossible? If not, what's left? — noAxioms

I'm not saying it has been established to be impossible, but that it hasn't been established to be possible. It hasn't to my knowledge. But, I'll just stick to asking a question: has this been established as possible? What is the argument and evidence to back up that claim?

Can you back that assertion? It sure looks an awful lot like a collection of matter to me. — noAxioms

It is. But it didn't come into that arrangement when a quintillion (whatever) particles all happened to bump into each other in the exact right arrangement. You can shake a bag of hydrogen and oxygen, but you won't make water. Something more than their physical contact is needed. You can't shake a bag of protein and fatty substances, and pull out meylin sheath. You can't add iron, proteins, and lipids to a bowl, stir, and have a bowl of blood. Physics and Chemistry can tell us how X and Y can be joined together in any given case.

Dr. Manhattan can say, "Thermodynamic miracles... events with odds against so astronomical they're effectively impossible, like oxygen spontaneously becoming gold." If there was a way to prove it, I'd bet the ends of two pieces of wood have never fused together simply by being touched together. Some help is needed. The assertion that needs backing is that an incomprehensibly large number of the exact right mixture of particles can happen to come together in exactly the right arrangement, and fuse together in ways such particles are not known to fuse together, and become a living brain. "A lot can happen in a really long time" is not supporting evidence.

And especially why should we accept it when it hasn't even been established that a disembodied brain -- simply appearing in space and time with false memories and lacking any sense organs -- is possible. — GRWelsh

Now you're the one making a claim. Has it been established to be impossible? If not, what's left? — noAxioms

I don't see that Gar is making a claim. GR is asking how's it had been established that such a thing can be possible. And that cannot be established. As for "What's left"! A universe in which life came came about on Earth, and we evolved.

has this been established as possible? — GRWelsh

No model has been specified, and in cases such as this, the model must precede the establishment of any facts such as the possibility of BBs. It's kind of backwards from the usual situation where the observations precede the model.

What is the argument and evidence to back up that claim? — GRWelsh

Again, the model precedes the evidence. Given the wrong model, there can be no evidence.

Case in point:

But it didn't come into that arrangement when a quintillion (whatever) particles all happened to bump into each other in the exact right arrangement. — Patterner

There we go. You have a model of pre-existing particles bumping into each other by chance. It's not the usual model, but a workable one.

You can shake a bag of hydrogen and oxygen, but you won't make water. — Patterner

Actually, that's pretty much how most of the water gets made, so I very much beg to differ.

Dr. Manhattan can say, "Thermodynamic miracles... events with odds against so astronomical they're effectively impossible, — Patterner

Astronomical odds are still finite, so when multiplied by infinite time, they become not just probable, but certain. I don't think you realize the size of the numbers they talk about when discussing these sorts of probabilities. They are astronomical indeed, and they don't need to be a human brain (or even a 3-dimensional construct). It just needs to be something in a state believing it is a 3d human, and believing in theory X.

Astronomical odds are still finite, so when multiplied by infinite time, they become not just probable, but certain — noAxioms

?? Reference, please.

You can shake a bag of hydrogen and oxygen, but you won't make water.
— Patterner
Actually, that's pretty much how most of the water gets made, so I very much beg to differ. — noAxioms

That is not how any water was made. Simple physical contact does not combine the atoms. A Google search will bring up any number of sites about it. Energy is required. A spark.

Dr. Manhattan can say, "Thermodynamic miracles... events with odds against so astronomical they're effectively impossible,
— Patterner
Astronomical odds are still finite, so when multiplied by infinite time, they become not just probable, but certain. I don't think you realize the size of the numbers they talk about when discussing these sorts of probabilities. — noAxioms

What are the odds, and how are they determined? How is it known that it is effectively impossible, rather than impossible?

Energy is required. A spark. — Patterner

A sack of hydrogen and oxygen has no energy? What does more energy do other than increase the rate at which they hit each other hard enough? A sack full of room temperature molecules will occasionally impart enough speed to some of the particles that they will react/combine. It's just slower.

What are the odds, and how are they determined? — Patterner

I think that's the right question. Dr Manhattan is perhaps assuming a model that yields sufficiently low probabilities (like ones that drop off over time so an infinite series of them converges to a low number). That's what makes it 'sufficiently unlikely'.

?? Reference, please. — jgill

For what? That 0.00[an awful lot of zeros]06 * 100[an unlimited number of zeros] yields something large? You require a reference for that or are you contesting something else?

Is a Boltzmann hydrogen bomb possible?

?? Reference, please. — jgill

For what? — noAxioms

Perhaps I misinterpret what you said. It sounds like you are saying that it is certain those monkeys will type out Shakespeare.

How would you calculate density for a infinite number of things (e.g., Boltzmann brains) in an infinitely large space? — RogueAI

Excellent question. I hadn’t thought of it that way. That being the case, how can we calculate the odds that all of the particles needed to form a BB would ever be near each other?