Don't take it too seriously Vera Mont, It wasn't meant that way. — ChatteringMonkey
and increasingly violent in its rhetoric is very serious.Four clicks on an incognito browser is all it takes for YouTube to churn up a video about, as the host puts it, “embracing the idea of violence” in a society that “despises” what it means to be a man
https://globalnews.ca/news/8508795/canada-social-media-algorithm-reform/
I'm sure lots of people have problems around sex, sexuality, and the need for love.So, involuntary? No. Not definitively. An obstacle. — Benj96
So you and others keep saying. How do you know? What does "almost by definition" actually mean? Might there not be motivations other than self-pity involved?because they are almost by definition socially inept, unattractive etc. and we have some kind of biological preference for the attractive and the successful. — ChatteringMonkey
I've heard that argued about some groups who have since done a good deal of damage. ISIS comes to mind... Society as whole might recover from them; the direct casualties will not. I consider poisoning a large segment of the next generation of men to the whole concept of healthy relationships as a damage.I would argue that Incels will never gain any amount of social power to sufficiently alter the culture so it would become damaging to women and our culture as a whole... — ChatteringMonkey
I think this is step one for understanding and dealing with the situation. Conflating those two groups isn't helpful. Both may experience self-loathing but the characteristic trait of incels is that they see women as animals to be used and abused for their pleasure and resent any social structure that prevents that. — Baden
Probably the most succinct way I can put it is that sympathising with incels--in their developed online form--is akin to sympathising with white supremacists because black people won't be their slaves or with neo-Nazis because they can't put Jews in concentration camps. There is a point where compassion is not the appropriate response. — Baden
However, to a great many people receiving daily threats, and those who have already been attacked, it is very serious indeed. The fact that the 'movement' is spreading, growing, recruiting
Four clicks on an incognito browser is all it takes for YouTube to churn up a video about, as the host puts it, “embracing the idea of violence” in a society that “despises” what it means to be a manhttps://globalnews.ca/news/8508795/canada-social-media-algorithm-reform/
and increasingly violent in its rhetoric is very serious. — Vera Mont
because they are almost by definition socially inept, unattractive etc. and we have some kind of biological preference for the attractive and the successful.
— ChatteringMonkey
You you keep saying. How do you know? What does "almost by definition" actually mean? Might there not motivations other than self-pity involved? — Vera Mont
I would argue that Incels will never gain any amount of social power to sufficiently alter the culture so it would become damaging to women and our culture as a whole...
— ChatteringMonkey
I've heard that argued about some groups who have since done a good deal of damage. ISIS comes to mind... Society as whole might recover from them; the direct casualties will not. I consider poisoning a large segment of the next generation of men to the whole concept of healthy relationships as a damage. — Vera Mont
Maybe counter-culture vs mainstream is not the right binary — Baden
Power is a vital aspect of the patriarchy. I don't think Incels have much power, on the contrary, they seem very much a marginal group. — ChatteringMonkey
The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game. — Dylan
Power is a vital aspect of the patriarchy. I don't think Incels have much power, on the contrary, they seem very much a marginal group.
— ChatteringMonkey
But appearances are deceptive. Compare with the case of the poor white racist:
The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.
— Dylan — unenlightened
Here's a question, would you say what ideologies are in power, what is culture and what is counterculture, can change over time? And what then would be the criterium by which we judge that? I'd say that criterium would be power. — ChatteringMonkey
Unlike many here on the forum I don't have any antipathy toward religion. I suspect you can't separate it from other social factors when considering social history. — T Clark
Here's a question, would you say what ideologies are in power, what is culture and what is counterculture, can change over time? And what then would be the criterium by which we judge that? I'd say that criterium would be power.
— ChatteringMonkey
Sure, culture changes. I presume that matrilineal culture was dominant in prehistory, simply because we knew where babies come from - between the legs of a woman. Somewhere about 1-2 millennia BC. patriarchy came to dominate. But I don't know how you measure power in this context. The ruler needs an army; the chess player needs pawns, and the little people are what the culture is made of, more so than the powerful's ablity to control it.
To change the mix of metaphors; the powerful can only blow the dog- whistle that the dogs have already been trained to respond to. — unenlightened
Modern liberal democracies, while remaining patriarchal, no longer see fit to so self-describe. — Baden
if you take the incel movement as a filter to view society you get neither an entirely clear nor an entirely distorted view. — Baden
I've no idea why it's so commonplace. My intuition asks that if self loathing is commonplace, what makes so many cis het white men hate themselves? — fdrake
The incel is male, and self-defining as disempowered ( because 'involuntary') as a sexually active person. This immediately implies that there is a male need/right to heterosexual sex that society, (women specifically,) ought to provide and does not. — unenlightened
Feeling disempowered doesn't imply anything. — T Clark
I actually asked the spokesman of the the Incel-movement these questions, and he told me that they want nothing less than world-domination. — ChatteringMonkey
Feeling disempowered implies feeling a desire or need for power. — unenlightened
Perhaps, but it doesn't imply "...that there is a male need/right to heterosexual sex that society, (women specifically,) ought to provide and does not. — T Clark
It's looking like you have no idea what is being talked about. 8 pages in that is not a great look. — unenlightened
Then you need to start being a bit more clear what it is you disagree with and on what basis. — unenlightened
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.