I dunno, this whole idea, that religion is bad and that we therefor should just do away with it, seems rather shallow to me. — ChatteringMonkey
You’re right to be scared of A.I.,
On Monday, researcher Geoffrey Hinton, known as “The Godfather of AI,” said he’d left his post at Google, citing concerns over potential threats from AI development. Google CEO Sundar Pichai talked last month about AI’s “black box” problem, where even its developers don’t always understand how the technology actually works.
Why These Scientists Fear Contact With Space Aliens: The more we learn about the cosmos, the more it seems possible that we are not alone. The entire galaxy is teeming with worlds, and we’re getting better at listening — so the question, “Is there anybody out there?” is one we may be able to answer soon.
"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering (Nietzsche)" — ChatteringMonkey
I think we want to see our actions framed in a larger whole ideally, so they become infused with some kind of meaning. — ChatteringMonkey
You ask me this because I attempted to confront the reality of the twentieth century? — Jamal
Why should I be an optimist? Seriously, why? — Jamal
Does philosophical thinking and discussion not include discussing atheism versus theism?This is a venue for philosophical thinking and discussion, not for atheist proselytizing or rousing the masses into revolutionary fervour. — Jamal
Is this your honest answer to my question 'are you another pessimist?'Optimism is often facile and banal. — Jamal
I will leave you and Terry Eagleton to debate that one.The optimist cannot despair, but neither can he know genuine hope, since he disavows the conditions that make it essential.
— Terry Eagleton, Hope Without Optimism
The title is where I'm at: hope without optimism.
Or is it the other way around? — Jamal
if the Nazis are Christian, then — unenlightened
I don't think so, It's probably as close to an universal human psychological truth you can come. Maybe you could say he probably saw it a bit more clearly because of his illness."To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering (Nietzsche)"
— ChatteringMonkey
He was a poor, sick man. I wasn't. Different experiences lead to different conclusions. — Vera Mont
Some do, some don't; some find it, some receive it, some invent it; some join organizations, armies, movements to be "part of something greater than themselves", some prefer interactions on a small scale, some are loners; some crave ideals, or truths or certitudes; some crave power, wealth or social status; some crave love but will take revenge instead; some cry, some laugh, some lie, some work, some pray, some fight; all die. — Vera Mont
Sure, I'm an atheist and I don't have any particular need for religion, I just think a lot of people probably do. — ChatteringMonkey
Part of the assumption many make is that the religious irrationally rely upon the impossible in order to cope, as if they possess a fragility non-believers don't have. That's really not the case...
...and I think it's why some religious people try to persuade non-believers to their point of view because they feel that non-believers are missing out on something meaningful.
I'm much opposed to proselytizing because I think it's annoying, condescending, and generally ineffective. I don't think people come to religion through badgering and I don't think it matches many people's personality types. If an atheist tells me they are fully happy without religion, I would have no reason to doubt that.
That's really not the case, and I think it's why some religious people try to persuade non-believers to their point of view because they feel that non-believers are missing out on something meaningful. — Hanover
The idea of general progress is necessarily one of forgetting. It sits alongside a dismissive attitude to suffering, a callous and shallow triumphalism (I know because I was guilty of this myself). Not only that, but the narrative offers either the present day or a future utopia as a stand-in for the Day of Judgement, or perhaps for heaven, and it begins to look like a matter of faith. Faith that progress can redeem humanity, that everything will be worth it in the end.
The truth is that nothing can absolve humanity of its crimes and nothing can make up for the suffering of the past, ever. Nothing and nobody will redeem humanity. Nothing will make it okay, and we will never be morally cleansed. We certainly ought to strive for a good, free society, but it will never have been worth it. — Jamal
Why waste it on those who have lived in a religious environment and rejected it? Very few people have been complete strangers to religious ideas and need to be informed. Most unbelievers came to their unbelief through experience and do know exactly what they're missing - what they often feel they have escaped from. In many cases I know of, atheists had simply stopped believing over time because they found the doctrine unconvincing. None of these people will be lured back into the fold by someone saying, "But it works for me." — Vera Mont
The optimist thinks it will happen, come what may, thus nothing already experienced matters at all. In contrast, the hoper wants it to happen, despite everything. — Jamal
For hope to have any value, you must have the optimism it can happen — Hanover
I'm with you on that, not being a believer myself. But I think it's fair to say that the majority of believers have never been asked to do those terrible things by their god. — Janus
In relation to the op then, can you put your finger on the "dogma" or even the ideology involved here, which could motivate this sort of atheist politicism. Surely the issue is more complex than the "fact/value" distinction of the op. It appears to me like the proper subject matter would be better described as the power/money relation. The relation of fact over value does not seem to have the same motivating force as the relation of power over money. "Value" and "money" are comparable, which would mean that the dogma which motivates such an atheist movement is power based rather than fact based. — Metaphysician Undercover
No... just to support their religious leaders' right to do those things. Much like the political extremists: most of us don't actually do it; all we do is vote for it, finance it and defend it. — Vera Mont
I realize that you've had a long dialogue about this already. Perhaps you're bored with it. But if I'm right that psychopathic behaviour is part of the human condition, removing religion may reduce the opportunities, but won't cure the problem. Those personalities will just find other ways to wreak havoc on the rest of us. I'm not saying there's nothing we can do about them, just that it's will be a continuous battle. Remember the slogan that freedom is not a place you arrive at and relax. It always needs defending. — Ludwig V
Your post is mostly misguided, but I will say that the point of “hope without optimism” is that optimism in effect dismisses the horrors that people have experienced, because it is a temperamental and unearned turning away from reality in favour of an imagined great future; and without knowing and feeling the horror, it negates hope in the most meaningful sense, namely the yearning for a better world in the midst of the lived and felt reality of hell on Earth.
The optimist thinks it will happen, come what may, thus nothing already experienced matters at all. In contrast, the hoper wants it to happen, despite everything. — Jamal
I don’t think they’re competing explanations. I’d say that the power/money ideologies build upon the fact/value separation, because the reduction of values to subjective preferences—this being the corollary of the triumphant objectivity of science and the profit-driven progress of technology—entails, through its removal of meaning from the social and natural whole, a norm of rational behaviour where the means are paramount, and the ends are the unexamined personal preferences conditioned by a socially stratified society, i.e., status, power, wealth. — Jamal
But I think it should be acknowledged that some of those who vote for political leaders who opt for military involvements in other countries and promote massive defense budgets, may not have specifically voted for those things, but voted on the strength of agreeing with their favored party's policies on other issues that concern them more. — Janus
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