Is Star Wars A Shared Mythos?
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    It's hardly original to say that Star Wars has become a series of shared cultural stories people now quote in conversation in ways that were once reserved for the tales of Greek myth. For many folk, Star Wars (if that's the right collective term) seems to provide lessons and metaphors for life.

    Disclosure - I'm not a Star Wars fan (the movie in 1977 had minimal impact) and while I consider The Empire Strikes Back the most entertaining of the movies, they have been pretty forgettable from where I sit.

    I'm curious what people think is behind the intense attraction and longevity of these movies and the wider Star Wars universe. Is it a new mythos, complete with life lessons? Has it filled some of the cultural space that used to be filled with stories of Hercules and Zeus, back when people read books? It seems like a shared cultural frame of reference which people used to find in Bible stories and folk tales. Or is it just mass entertainment that got lucky?

    Or is it the fact that George Lucas deliberately took many narrative tropes straight from Joseph Campbell's book of myth, Hero with a Thousand Faces, and consciously affected Jungian archetypes?

    Grown men my age (in their 50's) often have conspicuous displays of plastic action figures on shelves, a kind of idolatry, lined up like totems or fetishes. Are these things secretly worshiped? Why have them?

    Also, what is behind the intense hatred of George Lucas I seem to get from Star Wars fans. It's like he's perpetually Bob Dylan going electric, with cries of Judas! from a betrayed audience. But isn't he as creator worthy of veneration and respect? They seem to hate him...
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  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Star Wars – live-action cartoon – is still for those kids who want little to no science (plausibility) in their fiction. A pop culture "kewl" monomyth über-hyped, IIRC, during the Reagan era (e.g. Soviet "Evil Empire" & "SDI"). I suspect a lot of "the fan hate for G.L." is because of "Ewoks", "Jar-Jar Binks" and (as my 30 year old nephew had remarked several times when he was still in high school) Lucas excluding all/most of "the Extended Universe" (novels, etc) from the Star Wars canon. But hey, I was a 13 year old die-hard Trekkie back in '77, so what did (do) I know? :smirk:
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  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪180 Proof
    :up:
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  • Moliere
    4.8k
    I have mixed feelings about Star Wars. I now have little interest in new Star Wars productions, but growing up it was great.

    And I always have that love of historical things, but this one is different because it has nostalgia attached -- so it doesn't have the same feel as other historical things.

    I think there's a Christian bent to Star Wars, but that may just be my upbringing -- the thoughts I have on it though: Darth Vader as example of a person who has been corrupted and now comes out on the other side a good person, redeemed. Like a baptism. Without the prequels, there was golden age from which humanity had fallen, at least according to the old religious mythos (itself a Christian belief about being outcast in a world dominated by science). The focus on trusting your feelings, at least in the protestant sense of Christianity, accords with the personal experience theology of some Christians.

    Also, the whole farm-boy to savior arc has Jesus all over it.
    Moliere Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    Also, the whole farm-boy to savior arc has Jesus all over it. — Moliere

    That's one reading. The farm boy is the son of Lucifer the fallen angel, in this instance. :wink: Lucas borrowed this trope - the callow youth who goes out has adventures and returns as a hero/saviour from world mythology. It's a common story. No doubt we can see any religion in this story - A Japanese friend of mine was convinced the story had been borrowed from Japanese religion.

    All these ideas are directly from A Hero With A Thousand Faces by Campbell, the source of the Star Wars storyline. Check it out. The evil father, the wise wizard, the tutelary guardians, the quest, the rescue and princess, the sister, facing the father, enlightenment, etc. As I recall, the Force was inspired by the Tao.
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  • Moliere
    4.8k
    ↪Tom Storm
    I have now downloaded a pdf, but I have no plans for it. Just to be honest. Tho I'm interested....

    That's super interesting to me that it has resonances across religious experiences, too. Maybe there's a more general pattern which particular social groups could relate to?

    I can see The Force being inspired by Taoism in the original film, but even there it feels like a Christian interpretation of Taoism, to me: the visuals make it clear that the empire is evil and the accents make it clear that USians should relate to the good guys. The Good vs. Evil plot, I think, is what makes me think of Christianity in particular, especially with regards to choice. Taoism isn't as much about choosing good things, as I understand it, but about finding your place in the universe. But Christianity is all about choosing the Good Things -- as Luke implores Darth to do, and succeeds. (tho, thinking on that more literally, it *is* a reverse Christianity in that the son redeems the father)

    Damnation and hell isn't as emphasized, but neither is that as emphasized in more liberal interpretations of Christianity. (more liberal = you live the creed not because hell will hurt forever)
    Moliere Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    The Good vs. Evil plot, I think, is what makes me think of Christianity in particular, — Moliere

    Actually, I always took that as the Zoroastrian contribution which takes light and darkness as a key theme. Later religions were influenced.
    Tom Storm Options
  • Moliere
    4.8k
    ↪Tom Storm
    Fair.

    But redemption from the darkness?
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  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪Moliere
    Yep. Zoroastrianism had a final judgement, with redemption for all. Salvation was a Persian concept, as I understand it. But Star Wars is cod-mythology, so too much analysis will make it vanish, I suspect.
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  • Moliere
    4.8k
    ↪Tom Storm
    Cool.

    But in practice? Not many keep the literal fire alight, and you can see the Christian themes still? (Christians are guilty of being derivative... )
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  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪Moliere
    I see universal themes or themes from myth. I'm not especially interested in tracking it too strongly to Tao or Zoroastrian or Christian. The film seems to be a piece of post-modern pop, a hybrid of mythology and film history styles, so anything you want you will probably find in it - from pirate movie tropes to Cold War metaphors. :smile:

    The interesting part is the hold it has had on culture.
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  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    ↪Tom Storm
    From a two year old post ...
    ... I'd come across the space opera novel Dune and had read it (maybe twice immediately), my grade school antipathy for Star Wars was confirmed – it'd seemed back in '77 that Star Wars was only a corny mashup of 1930s' era Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Wizard of Oz & bad samurai flicks ... but, in fact, I found that George Lucas had filmed a highly derivative, dumbed-down, "adaptation" of the 1965 Frank Herbert novel. — 180 Proof
    I haven't watched the latest film adaptation of Dune yet because I'd decided to wait for the second film (second half of the novel) to be released so I can watch Denis Villeneuve's complete adaptation (aka "Star Wars for grown-ups"). :nerd:
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  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪180 Proof
    I hope too see the recent Dune too when I can sit still for longer than 15 minutes. :wink:
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  • Paine
    2.5k
    I have only watched snippets of Dune movies because i think there is something deliberately anti-cinematic about it. The Star Wars stories are historical analogues of Beowulf repeated ad infinitum with Jane Austin thrown in for romantic interest.
    Dune presents a universe of inexorable consequences where the good guys may not win, if you can say who they are.
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  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    The Star Wars stories are historical analogues of Beowulf repeated ad infinitum with Jane Austin thrown in for romantic interest. — Paine

    :cool:
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  • Moliere
    4.8k
    The film seems to be a piece of post-modern pop, a hybrid of mythology and film history styles, so anything you want you will probably find in it - from pirate movie tropes to Cold War metaphors. :smile: — Tom Storm
    it'd seemed back in '77 that Star Wars was only a corny mashup of 1930s' era Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Wizard of Oz & bad samurai flicks ... — 180 Proof

    The interesting part is the hold it has had on culture. — Tom Storm

    I'll offer the Marxist theory of Star Wars' hold (40 second mark didn't hold with the embedded link)



    But I believe there's also aesthetic reasons, more to do with film and pop-culture, that made Star Wars blow up the way it did. It's definitely a mish-mash of a lot of ideas, and it's neither the plot nor the characters that hold it together (I think the actors other than Mark manages well enough with actor charisma, though). I'm told that the editing on the film is supposed to have made a huge difference in comparison to the script, but I haven't done the dig on that.

    Otherwise: Lucas was a master of merchandising on the moment! :D
    Moliere Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪Moliere
    Interesting. I largely agree.

    Otherwise: Lucas was a master of merchandising on the moment! :D — Moliere

    That's for sure.
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  • Mikie
    6.7k
    I'm curious what people think is behind the intense attraction and longevity of these movies and the wider Star Wars universe. Is it a new mythos, complete with life lessons? — Tom Storm

    I loved them as a kid. Like (almost) any movie, there are some parts I don't like and never have, even as an adolescent. The dialogue is often cringey. But I think the reason it's so popular is because of the basic storyline -- it's a classic good vs evil story. You have a great bad guy in Darth Vader, and the stormtroopers, the empire, the Death Star -- all easy to digest and root against. A cool underdog hero.

    Factor in the special effects, which were really cool at the time (blasters and lightsabers), and ideas like "The Force", which is also a cool amalgam of mostly eastern religious teachings and "science" (I guess), and you have a winner during a time of first summer blockbusters.

    Alec Guinness really helps give some weight to the movie, as does James Earl Jones' voicework. None of the main actors are very good, though, in my opinion. I like them, but they're stiff in this one (the first one).

    Anyway -- yeah, just a lot of things went right. Like Michael Jackson's Thriller, it came at the right time and made a lot of good choices.

    Most of all, though, I think the choice of John Williams to score the film was by far the most important. What would this movie be without the music?
    Mikie Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    What would this movie be without the music? — Mikie

    Yes indeed - Star Wars one one of those films that brought back the Dimitri Tiomkin-style orchestral film score - even if it sounded more like Holst's The Planets.

    Any idea why 55 year-old men have shrines of plastic figures four decades on?
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  • Mikie
    6.7k
    Any idea why 55 year-old men have shrines of plastic figures four decades on? — Tom Storm

    Nostalgia.
    Mikie Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪Mikie
    :up:
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  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Nostalgia. — Mikie
    :up:
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  • Moliere
    4.8k
    idk guys -- I'm pretty sure those shrines have a hidden aesthetic meaning beyond both the beautiful and the sublime.
    Moliere Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪Moliere
    I prefer to think of these displays as worship of Lucasfilm before the reformation.
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  • Moliere
    4.8k
    ↪Tom Storm
    :rofl:
    Moliere Options
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