not sure why this point was made then. Whatbehaviour are you referring to in relation to trans? — Tom Storm
I do believe that in many of these instances XX and XY accurately describe what the speaker meant when he hung the sign, not what the word eventually evolved into and what it was meant to protect. — Hanover
If the rational basis for maintaining the historic distinction is comfort or perceived safety of the vast majority of users, that seems sufficient to me — Hanover
[Edit] Should have included issues with sports teams. — T Clark
Women are not permitted in men's restrooms even should they feel safe being there. The regulation isn't entirely safety related. — Hanover
The comparison to African Americans would elevate the scrutiny under which a law is evaluated, but by making that turn, you now have to explain why you've elevated that class of people over others.
African Americans are afforded special status (as are others) due to specific laws and court decisions based upon historical discrimination. You must now explain how the transsexual experience is sufficiently similar to blacks should you want both to be subject to the same sorts of protection.
Those arguments have been made, with some positive and negative responses, some of the negative coming from the African American community, but it certainly was not a unified position. — Hanover
It's interesting that no one ever raises the issue of female to trans-male. No one seems to care and perhaps this says something about attitudes to women more generally. — Tom Storm
Or is "modesty" a proxy for some other problem, unaddressed?
— Banno
You have no idea about the darkness that lies within. — Hanover
Let's take it step by step. We presumably agree that if there is no evidence trans women are more of a danger then cis women in bathrooms then excluding them on that basis is irrational. What is the next consideration for excluding them then and we can discuss that. — Baden
This seems like a non-sequitur. The purpose of the comparison was simply to make the point that both in a transphobic and racist society, false justifications relating to public health and safely will be used to maintain the status quo. — Baden
The threat of sexual deviance is a threat to the deepest fabric of society, the basis of property and privilege, and heritage itself, including nationality ethnicity etc. The male fear is that another man might have sex with my woman and my child not be mine. Even the women's toilets are not safe, and we must patrol them! — unenlightened
I'm not sure what the relevance of this is. — Tom Storm
Should someone who has physically transitioned use the bathroom associated with their sex chromosomes? — Michael
I think this is the crux of the matter. If I claim that transwomen aren't women, you'd think I'm transphobic? — frank
I would assume that if I walked into the women's gym locker and began disrobing, I would face hostility from the women, even those not in fear of assualt, but just pissed off that I invaded their space and exposed myself to them. — Hanover
At this stage, he avoids using the bathrooms at all costs, to the extent of not eating or drinking during the school day. — Baden
I think this is the crux of the matter. If I claim that transwomen aren't women, you'd think I'm transphobic? — frank
I do not believe the genuine danger faced by boys and girls at the hands of other boys is a necessary (you know, biological) feature of our lives, but a result of fucked up parenting and fucked up ideas about what being a man is. — Srap Tasmaner
I think this goes directly to my OP, which is the attempt at the disambiguation of the term "woman." There are XX women and XY women, both rightfully called "women," but two different groups. Claiming that XX individuals are not women because they don't gender identify as women seems as dogmatic as claiming that XY individuals who gender identify as women are not women.
An entire political debate centers around an equivocation fallacy where we then impose ontological status to all women regardless of whether they're XX or XY because we assume "woman" always has the same referent. From there all women play sports together because they are, afterall, all "women." Except they aren't the same type of women. — Hanover
Firstly, to give some context, I think society in general is transphobic and many intelligent and genuine people will unknowingly reflect transphobic attitudes. For those whose positions are based on bad information, misunderstandings, and misguided fears, I don't think the label transphobic is always helpful or appropriate. Plus, there is complexity as Hanover is pointing to. Taking all that into consideration, I'd personally want to approach individuals charitably re that claim. However, in a more generalised sense, I do think a blanket denial of trans womanhood that simply designates trans women as men who "like to wear dresses " or change their bodies to look like women is transphobic, though not necessarily ill-intentioned (this seems to be @NOS4A2's stance). Going beyond that then you have hatred, mockery, and disgust which is unambiguously transphobic and needs to be pushed back against firmly. — Baden
Going beyond that then you have hatred, mockery, and disgust which is unambiguously transphobic and needs to be pushed back against firmly. — Baden
"Disgust" I think is the key word here. — Srap Tasmaner
I'm guessing you experience this yourself. — frank
Um, no.
I really thought the italics would do it. Adding a note now. — Srap Tasmaner
There's a judicial sound to this post, or did I read that in?
I mean, I respect your opinion on this, and your right to forcefully advocate for it. I don't see you as a judge on this issue, though. — frank
What exactly constitutes transphobia isn't clear cut. — Baden
What exactly constitutes transphobia isn't clear cut. — Baden
Have you been living under a rock? — Srap Tasmaner
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.