• Wayfarer
    22.5k
    The argument from reason challenges the proposition that everything that exists, and in particular thought and reason, can be explained solely in terms of natural or physical processes. It is, therefore, an argument against materialist philosophy of mind. According to the argument, if such theories were true, our thoughts, and so also our reasoning, would be determined on the molecular level by neurochemistry, leaving no role for the free exercise of reason.

    The basis of the argument is, then, that if materialism were correct, our thoughts would be the product of physical processes which are in themselves devoid of any purpose or intentionality (in line with the axioms of materialism, which holds that everything in the Universe is the product of physical laws and product of non-intentional and non-purposive processes). However our ability to engage in rational inference presupposes the existence of intentionality and purpose. Reasoning involves forming beliefs based on evidence, making logical inferences, and seeking to arrive at a true understanding. If our thoughts were merely the result of physical causation, they would lack the ability to either genuinely apprehend truth, or to be rationally justified in making truth claims.

    The Target of Criticism
    In order to clearly frame the argument from reason, it is necessary to understand what it is opposed to. This is usually said to be ‘naturalism’, but I will instead propose that its target is better named physicalism or materialism.

    Thomas Nagel uses the term "the materialist neo-Darwinian concept of mind" 1 to refer to a view that combines materialist philosophy of mind with the principles of neo-Darwinism, which is the modern synthesis of Darwinian evolution and genetics. Advocates include Daniel Dennett, Alex Rosenberg, D.M. Armstrong, J C C Smart, and others. These are strict reductionists, claiming that states of mind are brain-states, and therefore ultimately reducible to physical laws. For example, Daniel Dennett, speaking of the organic molecule, says that ‘An impersonal, unreflective, robotic, mindless little scrap of molecular machinery is the ultimate basis of all the agency, and hence meaning, and hence consciousness, in the universe’2

    C S Lewis
    The current form of the argument from reason was popularised by C S Lewis in 1947, subsequently revised and reformulated after criticism from G.E.M. Anscombe. The argument is as follows:

    1. No belief is rationally inferred if it can be fully explained in terms of nonrational causes.

    This is because rational inference requires insight into logical relations. A process of reasoning (P therefore Q) is rational only if the reasoner sees that Q follows from P, and accepts Q on that basis. Thus, reasoning is veridical only if it involves a specific kind of causality, namely, rational insight. If a belief can be fully explained by nonrational causes, such as a physical influence then it cannot be said to be the product of reason. Lewis gives the example:

    We can say, 'Grandfather is ill today because he ate lobster yesterday.' We can also say, 'Grandfather must be ill today because he hasn't got up yet (and we know he is an invariably early riser when he is well).' In the first sentence 'because' indicates the relation of Cause and Effect: The eating made him ill. In the second, it indicates the relation of what logicians call Ground and Consequent. The old man's late rising is not the cause of his disorder but the reason why we believe him to be disordered. There is a similar difference between 'He cried out because it hurt him' (Cause and Effect) and 'It must have hurt him because he cried out' (Ground and Consequent). The first indicates a dynamic connection between events or 'states of affairs' i.e. 'eating lobster caused him to be ill'; the first, a logical relation between beliefs.

    Now a train of reasoning has no value as a means of finding truth unless each step in it is connected with what went before in the Ground-Consequent relation. If our B does not follow logically from our A, we think in vain. If what we think at the end of our reasoning is to be true, the correct answer to the question, 'Why do you think this?' must begin with the Ground-Consequent 'because'
    — C S Lewis, Miracles, Chap 3

    2. If naturalism is true, then all beliefs can be fully explained in terms of non-rational causes.

    Support: Naturalism holds that nature is all that exists, and that all events in nature can in principle be explained without invoking mental causation. As a matter of definition physicalists claim that all events must have physical causes, and that therefore human thoughts can ultimately be explained in terms of material causes or physical events (such as neurochemical events in the brain) that are nonrational. In Lewis' terms, this would entail that our beliefs are a result of a physical chain of causes, not held as a result of insight into a ground-consequence relationship.

    3. Therefore, if naturalism is true, then no belief is rationally inferred (from 1 and 2).

    4. We have good reason to accept naturalism only if it can be rationally inferred from good evidence.

    5. Therefore, there is not, and cannot be, good reason to accept naturalism.

    (As noted, I feel the argument is better expressed by the term 'physicalism' rather than 'naturalism', as today's naturalism is not so clearly physicalist as it was at the time of Lewis' argument, although that in itself is an interesting discussion point.)

    My view of the argument

    I myself am not a particular admirer of C S Lewis (although I enjoyed a collective biography of him and his confrères, The Inklings, P & C Zalenski - the other Inklings being Owen Barfield, C.S Williams, and Tolkein). Nor do I present the argument as any kind of 'proof of God' (God forbid). However, I'm convinced that the basic drift of the argument is sound, because, as it says, reasoned inference comprises wholly and solely the relationship of ideas - not of neurochemicals across synapses.

    'Hang on', you might say, 'if we but had sensitive enough instrumentation, would it not be possible to detect the neural configurations of such ideas in the operations of the brain?' To which I would point out that there's an inevitable circularity in such an attempt. This is because to establish any kind of logical relationship between the data, and the exercise of reason, would itself be an exercise of reason. I would argue that reason is internal to the act of thought - that it can't be detected in external data, such as neurological data, without drawing on the very faculty which you're seeking to explain. So I would argue that there's a problem of recursion - you can't see reason 'from the outside', as it were (another of Thomas Nagel's arguments.)

    That's all for now - there are many more points to discuss, but it's already a long OP so will leave it there pending any comments.

    --------
    1. Thomas Nagel, Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False. In this book, Nagel makes the case that this is, as it were, the default philosophy of the secular intelligentsia. A detailed abstract is available here (NY Times).
    2. Daniel Dennett, Darwin’s Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1995), 202-3.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    That's a really nicely presented OP.

    I suspect Richard Rorty would argue that what looks like reason and rationality to humans is pretty much just a trick of language and contingency.

    Isn't it the case that in nature animals survive and thrive if they make certain choices and not others? Couldn't it be argued that reason is just the choices that allow us to have more efficacious outcomes? In more vulgar Darwinian terms, natural selection privileges rational behavior as it enhances our chances of survival, and humans as pattern seeking creatures, adopt reason as the pattern which enhances the capacity to flourish. And of course reason has been painstakingly constructed over time and isn't all that popular in most areas of human life.
  • Srap Tasmaner
    5k

    'Grandfather must be ill today because he hasn't got up yet (and we know he is an invariably early riser when he is well).' — C S Lewis, Miracles, Chap 3

    'It must have hurt him because he cried out' — C S Lewis, Miracles, Chap 3

    If our B does not follow logically from our A, we think in vain. — C S Lewis, Miracles, Chap 3

    In neither of these examples does the B follow logically from the A, not the way we usually use "follow logically"; in each case the A's count as evidence for their respective B's, and it's the easiest thing in the world to construct a defeater. (Grandpa's not ill, he's dead, still angry about what you said about Trump last night, etc.)

    I'm still not clear how the argument works. If I hold A and think B follows from A, infer B and then hold B on the basis of A, that's all you and Lewis need, right?
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    I think the distinction is between different types of 'because' - 'because' in the sense of 'he became ill because he ate lobster' - the observation of a physical cause and effect. The second is based on the understanding of grandfather's behaviour - hence an understanding of 'ground and consequence'. I don't think the point is to prove that what the cause of the illness was, but simply to show that one could arrive at an understanding based on insight into the subject's behaviour.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    If you bark twice you get a dog treat.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    :up:

    At most (being charitable), the "argument from reason" only narrowly applies to reductive physicalism, otherwise a broader conclusion presupposes a false dichtomy (i.e. either "reductive physicalism" or "nonphysicalism") fallacy which invalidates the argument.
  • Srap Tasmaner
    5k


    Sure, I get that. Two meaning of "because", two meanings of "reason". I get that, but I'm not clear how you make an argument out of this and if an argument has been made.

    It's a matter of my psychological history that I have made the inferences I have, rational or not. But you and Lewis seem to think my good inferences are evidence of something that my bad inferences are not, and I don't understand why.

    Take Grandpa. He hasn't come down, and I can reasonably infer that he's sick. Cool. I'm mister rationality and my behavior disproves naturalism.

    But if there's a deer nibbling the grass in my yard when I step out on the porch, it will hear the slightest sound I make and freeze. If I make a considerable noise, it'll bolt. To me, Grandpa staying in bed is a sign that he's sick; to a deer the noises I make are a sign of danger. Is the deer's behavior also a refutation of naturalism? --- I mean, you can punt, because you don't need another refutation of naturalism if you've already got one, but what makes my behavior so special? (If you don't like the deer, substitute the dog that knows the particular sound of his owner's car.)
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    It's a matter of my psychological history that I have made the inferences I have, rational or not.Srap Tasmaner

    But then, that's reductionist, as well - of the type of reductionism that says that we hold the beliefs that we do, because of our psychological history, or because of some disposition. 'Psychologism', I believe it is called. Not because they're true, or can be true, regardless of those factors.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    At most (being charitable), the "argument from reason" only narrowly applies to reductive physicalism,180 Proof

    I was an undergrad at the University where D M Armstrong was head of school of philosophy. His best-known book is called A Materialist Theory of Mind. I would consider the argument from reason to be fatal to the premisses of that book.
  • Srap Tasmaner
    5k


    It wasn't intended as the sort of reductionism you describe. You could claim if you want that the history of my mental states is not reducible to the history of my brain states.

    My point was that we are talking about my mental behavior here, and if I have mental behavior -- rational or not -- that isn't reducible to biology, then you're good, naturalism is refuted. I don't understand the focus on my mental behavior you consider rational, and how its being rational makes it special evidence against naturalism.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    I don't understand the focus on my mental behavior you consider rational, and how its being rational makes it special evidence against naturalism.Srap Tasmaner

    It is because of the physicalist assumptions of the kind of naturalism that the argument is aimed at. I mean, do you agree that 'An impersonal, unreflective, robotic, mindless little scrap of molecular machinery (i.e. the organic molecule) is the ultimate basis of all the agency, and hence meaning, and hence consciousness, in the universe?' If you don't agree, then you may not see the point of the argument, because it's not relevant to your own philosphical point of view.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    Back in the day, I couldn't find a copy of A Materialist Theory of Mind, but I'd eventually learned much from Armstrong's A Combinatorial Theory of Possibility and Sketch for a Systematic Metaphysics which, IME, are far more consistent with both formal and natural sciences than any 'immaterialist, antirealist or supernaturalist' speculations on the world, mind, etc I've come across.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    Here's an example from D M Armstrong, A Materialist Theory of Mind - a paragraph chosen practically at random, expressing a kind of exasperation that anyone could dare think that the mind somehow is not an outcome of the law of physics or cannot be brought within the ambit of physics.

    6xn4hag9ful33pe5.png
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    I think it is just a matter of not knowing. Any ‘theory’ that is given will necessarily be one that is ‘physical’/‘material’.

    ‘Love’ can be said to have ‘physical’ markers yet in and of itself there is more to experience than mere physical reduction. I am most convinced by Hussel’s approach when it comes to consciousness. There need be no answer just because we can ask a question. The problem is likely not understanding that some so-called ‘questions’ posed are not really questions at all.

    Crisis was an attempt to highlight the problem of reducing psychology to materialism/physicalism.
  • Srap Tasmaner
    5k
    It is because of the physicalist assumptions of the kind of naturalism that the argument is aimed at.Wayfarer

    Still not seeing it.

    This is true: the kind of reason I have for believing in UFOs is not the same kind of reason my treehouse fell down; those are two different senses of the word "reason", the former to do with inference and the latter with gravity.

    This is unargued for: if I believe something for a reason, my belief is uncaused, or whatever you'd prefer to say there --- not describable without remainder in physical terms, blah blah blah.

    Is there an argument from "because" having two senses to there being two realms, one ruled by Physics or Something and one ruled by Reason or Something? If that's even what we're going for.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    s there an argument from "because" having two senses to there being two realms, one ruled by Physics or Something and one ruled by Reason or Something? If that's even what we're going for.Srap Tasmaner

    A story that comes to mind - I can't remember where I read it, or the details. But it was to do with a man who had a brain tumour (I think it was) who suddenly started to manifest extreme paedophilic behaviour. He had always been an upstanding citizen and this behaviour was completely out of character for him, but he was arrested and charged with innappropriate relations with minors. Whilst on remand, other symptoms began to manifest, and the tumour was discovered and excised. After this, his behaviour returned to normal. As I said, I can't remember all the details,but I think the court accepted that he had been influenced by this condition to perform acts against his own judgement.

    You could generalise that to many cases where subjects are found not responsible for their actions because of some physical impediment or condition. I think that would be categorised as a physical cause. Whereas, it would be argued, if a subject were completely in possession of his faculties, and still decided to pursue such activities, then they would be held responsible.

    I suppose that is a rhetorical example, but I think it draws out one of the implications of the argument, does it not?

    Crisis was an attempt to highlight the problem of reducing psychology to materialism/physicalism.I like sushi

    Right. That book is sitting here on my desk as I write this. I'm perfectly confident that Edmund Husserl was not the target of this kind of argument.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    Any ‘theory’ that is given will necessarily be one that is ‘physical’/‘material’.I like sushi

    On further thought, I’m rather intrigued by why you would say that, and why it appears obvious to you.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Because a theory only has meaning if it can be tested. It is not a theory that god exists it is a belief. They are quite different. If proof of gods existence was provided it would necessarily constitute something that refers to a ‘physical’/‘materialist’ framework rather than based on some pure logic.

    Miasma theory did not hold up when explaining malaria BUT there was a material/physical connection. If we are searching for a COMPLETE understanding I think that is a faulty approach to begin with.
  • Srap Tasmaner
    5k
    the implications of the argumentWayfarer

    The implications of what argument?

    I thought in this thread you were presenting a specific argument, credited to Lewis with an assist from Anscombe, not just the usual clash of beliefs, and not just the bare claim that "we are not our brains" or something.

    I don't yet see what the argument is.

    Is it equivalent to an argument about free will and responsibility?

    Doesn't seem to be, unless you wanted to say that abusers of children rationally infer that they should do what they do. (And I can't believe you'd reach for such an example after pooh-poohing psychological history, when it is widely known that abusers were often themselves abused.)
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    The argument from reason challenges the proposition that everything that exists, and in particular thought and reason, can be explained solely in terms of natural or physical processes. It is, therefore, an argument against materialist philosophy of mind. According to the argument, if such theories were true, our thoughts, and so also our reasoning, would be determined on the molecular level by neurochemistry, leaving no role for the free exercise of reason.Wayfarer

    This appears to be begging the question, by presuming that the exercise of reason is something different than information processing occurring in our brains.

    Smuggling in a dualism which isn't part of the materialist view doesn't do anything to contradict a materialist view.

    Then there is the issue of "free exercise of reason", which suggests to me a desire to maintain a belief in libertarian free will. However, giving up a naive notion of libertarian free will is a small price to pay for the more accurate understanding that comes with a well informed materialist perspective. (Assuming we want to compare appeals to consequences.)
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    The basis of the argument is, then, that if materialism were correct, our thoughts would be the product of physical processes which are in themselves devoid of any purpose or intentionality (in line with the axioms of materialism, which holds that everything in the Universe is the product of physical laws and product of non-intentional and non-purposive processes).Wayfarer

    Assuming you are using "intentionality" as discussed in the SEP, this 3blue1brown video provides a good sketch of how the outputs of a neural network can be *about* numerical digits in the visual field provided as inputs to the neural network. So intentionality can be recognized as emerging at relatively low levels in our neurological information processing.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    2. If naturalism is true, then all beliefs can be fully explained in terms of non-rational causes.Wayfarer

    Sorry about the piecemeal response. I'm at work right now, and addressing things as I have small windows of time.

    I disagree with your premise above. Naturalism being true does not entail being able to fully explain all physical systems and in particular there are insurmountable issues to fully explaining complex systems, and brains are the most complicated physical systems we know of. Naturalism being true only requires beliefs being *caused*, by what at the lowest level are non-rational causes.
  • introbert
    333
    From my interpretation of what you wrote the argument from reason assumes natural physics are deterministic without full knowledge of workings. Cliffords argument for determinism that action is based on sequential stimuli, could also cause near unlimited possibilities in a physical structure like the brain X 'ideas'. Obviously ideas to a determinist are direct observstions not flights of fancy, so anyone not proceeding in a reasonable sequence is predestined by design to fail and then?
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    The general problem in the argument is framing things as True or Not True in relation to phenomenon instead of understanding it as an abstract game that helps guide us through ‘reality’ rather than something that is directly applicable to ‘reality’.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    The general problem in the argument is framing things as True or Not True in relation to phenomenon instead of understanding it as an abstract game that helps guide us through ‘reality’ rather than something that is directly applicable to ‘reality’.I like sushi

    What are your thoughts on replacing "true" and "false" with "more accurate" and "less accurate"?

    Throwing away the notions of true or false altogether seems a bit extreme to me. Wouldn't we, in effect, be throwing out logic as well?
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    Another thought regarding which I'll preface with an exverpt from the SEP entry:

    In philosophy, intentionality is the power of minds and mental states to be about, to represent, or to stand for, things, properties and states of affairs. To say of an individual’s mental states that they have intentionality is to say that they are mental representations or that they have contents. Furthermore, to the extent that a speaker utters words from some natural language or draws pictures or symbols from a formal language for the purpose of conveying to others the contents of her mental states, these artifacts used by a speaker too have contents or intentionality.

    Do the outputs of ChatGPT have intentionality? Why or why not?
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    Do the outputs of ChatGPT have intentionality?wonderer1
    Well, it's not altogether clear even that human thoughts "have intentionality" ... :chin:
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    Well, it's not altogether clear even that human thoughts "have intentionality" ... :chin:180 Proof

    The SEP goes on to say:
    ‘Intentionality’ is a philosopher’s word: ever since the idea, if not the word itself, was introduced into philosophy by Franz Brentano in the last quarter of the nineteenth century, it has been used to refer to the puzzles of representation, all of which lie at the interface between the philosophy of mind and the philosophy of language.

    So do we blame old Franz for creating all of this confusion? :gasp:
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    What are your thoughts on replacing "true" and "false" with "more accurate" and "less accurate"?

    Throwing away the notions of true or false altogether seems a bit extreme to me. Wouldn't we, in effect, be throwing out logic as well?
    wonderer1

    Generally I hold to a view that some ideas are useful for certain purposes and some ideas are not. We never get to ultimate truth as such. Just things which work or don't. Does logic work everywhere?

    Well, it's not altogether clear even that human thoughts "have intentionality" ... :chin:180 Proof

    :fire: Next you'll be telling us qualia is nonsense...

    You clearly believe that natural processes were able to lead human animals to the use of reason.

    The argument here is essentially that naturalism isn't workable. But why wouldn't our ability to reason be advantageous for survival? I'm not arguing that evolution selects for truth, but that minds which can realistically understand the world around it (food that is safe to eat, predators to avoid, etc) are likely to survive better. A reasoning functionality in the brain would be advantageous - minds that survive, that act in accordance with truth, are more likely to survive the material world around them.

    So the underlying issue here from @Wayfarer perspective is that naturalism presupposes intentionality; our capacity for thoughts to be about stuff. How can physical things give rise to such thought? But isn't intentionality essentially about memory - our ability to observe things and recall them?

    We're back to the discussion about consciousness - how do we get to the mental?

    The question we're faced with: is it impossible that conscious processes could evolve from natural causes? Surely we can't say no.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    Well, it's not altogether clear even that human thoughts "have intentionality”180 Proof

    So how did this entry become written? By mistake?
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