• niki wonoto
    24
    (Note: This is going to be my personal sharing of my life's story, but it also has to do with existential crisis or existential depression. Also, I'm from Indonesia, English is not my first language, so please do kindly bear with me. Thank you very much)

    Long story short, my life is a complete failure. It’s full of wrong decisions, (in)actions, regrets, mistakes after mistakes, that I honestly think maybe it’s already too late to “fix everything” (eg: I’m losing all the good chances/opportunities, as I’m getting old now). It’s really ironic & tragic, because a lot of people always say that I’m very talented especially in music (I used to be quite an active musician & composer/songwriter, but sadly I’m still not famous & successful), smart, a deep thinker, a highly sensitive person, etc etc.

    I am also an idealist, meaning that I actually have a BIG vision & idea for the future of civilization/mankind/humanity, to make a real progress & “leap jump” in the future. For example, I seriously think that the real, truest “meaning of life” is to make a HUGE progress, a sort of evolution, for the future. And for our Human species, in my opinion, the real purpose is to unlock our wildest potential: our human’s Imagination. And I’m talking about all those most creative, artistic, & imaginative human’s minds for example like in all those most imaginative, fantasy, sci-fi movies, games, novels, comics, anime/manga, and any other most amazing work of arts. So in my opinion, our humanity/mankind/civilization’s most important & biggest task is to turn all those imaginations into a reality. And that’s why I’m now a big/huge proponent & supporter, as well as very interested in technology such as: Virtual Reality (VR), Augmented Reality (AR), and also Artificial Intelligence (AI), and also some thinking & concepts such as Transhumanism. But then again, sadly, the problem is I don’t know how to reach all those dreams & ideas of mine. And that is really depressing.

    I’m a Chinese-Indonesian, living in Jakarta (Indonesia). And the biggest problem is the culture/society here, also the mindset of the people here. They’re all still mostly very conservative, traditional, & outdated mindset/perspective about life. Especially with my Asian/Chinese-Indonesian parents for example, they still only think that the only “meaning of life” or “purpose” is simply just to survive, find a good job (or business), and make money, & then get married, have kids/children, etc etc. But for me, this can’t be all there is to life; Life should be so much more than that! But then, another biggest problem that I do realize and finally admit now is that, sadly, perhaps it’s all due to the many flaws in my personalities too: I listen too much to what other people/person say, I care too much (deeply), I’m easily down & depressed, & I also lack the ‘drive’/energy/motivation (and this is why perhaps I appear to be just “lazy” in the eyes of most people, including in my parents’ eyes), especially this year, when my Existential Depression just getting so much worse to the point of even being suicidal (having suicidal thoughts/fantasy/ideations almost everyday).

    I’m 40 years old this year, and here I am now, in reality, I’m still living with my parents, almost can be viewed as jobless/unemployed, or even a hikikomori (a shut-in recluse only staying at my room most of the time). The situation is now even getting much worse, with my family/parents’ problems, stress, plus now my little brother is also a depressed shut-in just like me, so my Chinese father especially, who is almost 70 years old now, is really disappointed, stressed, & perhaps even having a (severe) depression, because in his eyes, his sons are still a complete failure, and a total loser, because we are still not financially independent, still living in their houses & dependent on them for food, bills, etc etc. I’m also basically jobless/unemployed, and not interested at all to run his (my father’s) businesses, which are also currently going through perhaps the most difficult time of all times (financially, I don’t know & really afraid that perhaps even my parents’ money will run out soon or later), especially due to this COVID-19/corona pandemic situation.

    I also don’t know what to do. I’m lost, confused, depressed, suicidal, & feel like an alien. I can’t relate to most people/Human beings. I’m too “way out”, lost in my own thoughts, idealisms, visions, & all these “big/huge ideas” that I basically just don’t know anymore HOW/WHAT to do? Reality is depressing, very depressing, boring, limiting, & to be honest, this whole existence is just stupid, pointless, & meaningless for me now. My existential depression/crisis is getting much worse now, probably even the worst now, like I’ve said above, everyday now I’m even having suicidal ideations/fantasy/thoughts, and for me now, I’m seriously thinking that perhaps to die (death) is better than to live (just only to survive/for survival everyday).
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Find a cause that's not all about you! That's the part you seem not to have figured out yet. This universe does not tap you on the shoulder and say, here it is. This is what will give you meaning and purpose in your life. Part of the adventure of life is figuring that out for yourself.
    Perhaps if you set an example, your younger sibling would notice your example.
    If you kill yourself then your story ends and that's a waste of an opportunity to create meaning and purpose. That's what you are capable of, that no other lifeform or existent in the universe can demonstrate in the way you/we can. At least, we have encountered no other lifeform or existent in the universe, so far, which has such an ability.

    IMO, you have now posted quite a few threads on TPF which are basically you complaining about your life, and seeking some therapy from TPF members. That's fine, but you don't follow up. You get plenty of encouraging and thoughtful responses but you rarely respond to any of them.

    Will you wait another 20 or 30 years, before you realise that if you can take your basic means of survival for granted then your life is what you make it!
    You seem to have been able to acquire or be supplied with, food, water, shelter etc, for your almost 40 years of life so far lived.
    Use what you have learned about life and about people! Find a cause! Create meaning and purpose in your life, or continue to feel like a failure.
    You! are your main problem. Cultural, familial, societal, political, medical, issues can all play their part in helping or hindering your life, but,, this is not a rehearsal, this is your life, stop treating it and living it like it is a curse.
    I also don’t know what to do. I’m lost, confused, depressed, suicidal, & feel like an alien.niki wonoto
    Then maybe it's time for you to change.
  • Vera Mont
    4.2k
    I also don’t know what to do. I’m lost, confused, depressed, suicidal, & feel like an alien. I can’t relate to most people/Human beings.niki wonoto

    Welcome to the club! We get new members every day. Dying is not a very good alternative - it doesn't solve any problems or make up for any harms you may have done in the past.

    It seems to me you're making two fundamental mistakes - more accurately mismatches.
    You dismiss your past 'failures' and 'mistakes', instead of celebrating your past lives, enjoying the memory of good times, being grateful to have escaped serious injury and cherishing the lessons you've learned. There is no wasted life - there is only unappreciated life.

    An even bigger problem is: You criticize your society for being conservative, unimaginative, conformist. At the same time, you judge your own accomplishment by those same conservative, unimaginative, conformist standards. Success is fame, wealth, changing the world or having people listen to your big ideas? They can't: there is too much noise in their own heads, the same as there is in yours. A lot of the success they admire is intellectually and spiritually hollow. (Case in point: Elon Musk)

    Time to climb out of that box and figure out what your true, natural shape is. Calm all that negative noise in your head. Find a focal point: one small thing that matters, that you can think about coherently, that you can affect. Whether it's inventing a new silent engine or teaching somebody to read music, or just picking up paper cup from the road - one positive thing, one project at a time. And when you get something right, give yourself credit.
    As for the big ideas, write them down in the form of a story, or lots of stories. That's what most of us do.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    There is no wasted life - there is only unappreciated life.Vera Mont
    :100: :fire:

    I’m also basically jobless/unemployed, and not interested at all to run his (my father’s) businesses ...niki wonoto
    Stop being a selfish asshole. Help your father with his struggling business in any way you can – help your family, help your brother, contribute to your community. Whatever good you've experienced and benefitted from, sir, you owe them all – which is a debt none of us can repay but we can honor by taking care of others beginning with those closest to us.

    You will have plenty of time after your parents are gone to kill yourself; until then, be of service to your family and the community inspite of your "feelings". The impact of depression – "existential crisis" – is limited, or managed, by exerting and exhausting oneself by taking care of others – if only an extra pair of hands for your father – rather than obsessively wallowing in morose self-pity. BE THE FUTURE [IDEAL] YOU IMAGINE NOW ... even if only a very small version of that future [ideal]: full of the purpose to help save the family [business]. You don't need to like it or love it, be "interested at all" or be happy about it – fuck that, you're 40, sir, not 14! – just obey the imperative of loving your family who clearly love you [son, brother] enough to keep sheltering, clothing and feeding you. THE BETTER WORLD YOU IMAGINE, NIKI WONOTO, BEGINS WITH YOU, HERE AND NOW, BECOMING THE BETTER SON, BETTER BROTHER, BETTER CARETAKER OF YOUR COMMUNITY.
  • Mikie
    6.6k
    seeking some therapy from TPF members. That's fine, but you don't follow up. You get plenty of encouraging and thoughtful responses but you rarely respond to any of them.universeness

    As was the case for this thread too.
  • Mikie
    6.6k


    Who’s doing the interpreting about this life? You.

    What values, beliefs, conditioning, habits are you bringing to the table before you cast a judgment on what is a failure and what isn’t? What standard are you using?

    Seems to me you’re stuck in the idea that you haven’t achieved xyz — fame, fortune, or whatever your parents want from you. There are ways to be happy (healthy) apart from all that. Try meditating and exercising regularly— what’s there to lose?

    I also think you need therapy. One striking thing is lack of connection with others, which is an extremely important component to a happy life.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    As was the case for this thread too.Mikie

    Yeah, not sure if the Niki character is real, or it's just someone trying to bait folks into revealing the personal level of empathy they might generate towards the story they offer. Either just for kicks, or to find out what 'scenarios/word use/descriptions etc ' generate which emotive responses from people with an interest in philosophy. This can be a method used by nefarious individuals who want to learn how best to manipulate the emotions of others. Perhaps I am becoming too 'suspicious' of the agenda of others as I get older.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    I also think you need therapy. One striking thing is lack of connection with others, which is an extremely important component to a happy life.Mikie
    :up:

    Yeah, not sure if the Niki character is real, or it's just someone trying to bait folksuniverseness
    :brow: ...
  • L'éléphant
    1.5k
    I’m also basically jobless/unemployed, and not interested at all to run his (my father’s) businesses ... — niki wonoto

    Stop being a selfish asshole. Help your father with his struggling business in any way you can – help your family, help your brother, contribute to your community. Whatever good you've experienced and benefitted from, sir, you owe them all – which is a debt none of us can repay but we can honor by taking care of others beginning with those closest to us.
    180 Proof
    Yes, this is all good.

    Also, tell niki wonoto to open himself/herself to the world -- even in small ways. Make his life mean something to others, if he can't make it meaningful to himself. It's gonna be a very tiny circle -- not plastered on magazines or websites. So, one, he needs courage to face the fact that he is nothing to the world, he's a nobody; but that he can use his living daylights to help his family, or someone else. It won't be easy because the lack of motivation is the enemy. But as I just mentioned, courage is the key here. Courage to disobey his mind, and do something.

    Btw, all this lifelong career is bullshit. An acquaintance got fired from his job. So, what he did immediately -- he passed the cpa exam and got his license. Then abandoned it and enrolled back to college to study physics. He's arrogant in a good way. He wanted to prove he didn't get fired because of incompetence. He wanted to prove to them that he was bored to his skull.

    So anyway, niki wonoto's life can be a series of gig jobs. Forget about retirement or planning for the future. Just work to eat and pay for electricity. That's it.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    ... lifelong career is bullshit [...] He wanted to prove he didn't get fired because of incompetence. He wanted to prove to them that he was bored to his skull.L'éléphant
    :cool: :up:
  • rossii
    33
    Just stumbled upon this thread (and few others of niki wonoto) and I can say that I go through the same feelings…

    I often go through whole day constantly thinking that everything I do and whole life is pointless. I lack reason to go on living, real reason that would persuade me that even though things are (now) bad, I should endure it.

    I know that most people in threads say that suicide is irrational, permanent solution to temporary problem etc… but why? Why or how (as a pessimist) should one live? Why not suicide (like Mainlander for example, was he just in addition to being pessimist also depressed?)?

    Yes I’m well aware that my suicide would cause a lot of suffering, but only reason to live is for the sake of others? My mind is convincing me everyday that staying alive is irrational, just plain wrong and only response to this life - is death. As of by living i’m doing the wrong thing. Is the only reason I’m alive programmed fear of death?

    It’s been something like 8 years of living like this, trying therapy (4 different therapists) and plethora of antidepressants and nothing brought some sort of peace of mind or convince me it’s somewhat worth to live.

    And honestly, when it comes to my life situation, it’s really not that bad - I’m young (32), I have close family, close friends, place to live, food to eat, not worried about money, ok job, plenty of opportunities to do things… It just all seems empty, futile, meaningless…only at peace when I drift into sleep.

    Life is pointless, meaningless… whatever you wanna call it, I get that. I know that “happy” people don’t care that it´s like that, but that seems like living in some kind of delusion, because even then life is pointless, you just don’t care.

    I don’t know, maybe it´s just treatment resistant depression.

    So I guess, if anyone went through something like this, what did you do? What should I do?
  • universeness
    6.3k
    So I guess, if anyone went through something like this, what did you do? What should I do?rossii

    Time moves on regardless. You DO have the ability to train your brain to rethink your choice to live life as a curse. You will miss a lot of cool stuff and you will not witness any positive progress humanity might make if you are no longer here. It seems to me that your greatest enemy lies within you and it is that which you can decide to fight or succumb to. You are not the first to experience this challenge and you will certainly not be the last.
    No-one can prevent you from wasting your life. Why don't you use your life to help others as much as you can, if you are simply living it as a curse anyway, and you are unable to challenge that mental state, then focus on being of service to others.
  • rossii
    33
    thanks for the reply.

    I guess what I’m most struggling with is with answering to myself (ideally rationally) why not suicide (e.g. Mainlander)? What is the rational reason not to commit suicide and live, and after answering this question (and being convinced by the answer) then I can decide what to do with the remainder of my life. But without answering the first question (to be or not to be), there in any case, can’t be the second one.
  • Moliere
    4.6k
    Have you read Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus?

    I tried googling for pdf's and only found fragments. But it's not too expensive a book.

    And, importantly, it begins with the question of suicide as the first and only question a philosopher must answer: why bother carrying on?

    If you're looking for a philosophical approach to your question, that's probably the best book I can think of.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    What is the rational reason not to commit suicide and liverossii
    Can you influence anything? Can you reason and can that reason manifest in cause and purpose?
    If you can answer yes to these questions then your life has universal value/currency as 'you can make a difference' and 'you can cause change.' Whether or not the difference you make is for the better or for the worse, is for the judgement of others and will become part of your legacy. If you simply decide to opt out early then I am sure that a small number of people will be negatively affected but that's about it.
    It seems to me that suicide is an irrational choice, given all the factors involved. I do however think suicide is a very rational choice, in the case of overwhelming suffering, that is terminal.
  • rossii
    33
    Some months have gone by, and I still feel haunted by my thoughts, thinking the only reason I continue to live (for now) is the fear of death. That seems like a pretty bad reason to live.

    When I talk to people around me about these thoughts and feelings, I feel like an outsider. Nobody truly understands it, or understands why I think about life this way. I would say that almost everyone around me thinks life is worth living, enjoys it for the most part, pursues careers, travels, has children...and to me, it all seems empty and pointless.

    I won't deny that I've experienced peaceful and enjoyable days in my life - the problem is when I face intense suffering, and I can't find a rational reason to keep going and endure it.

    Searching forums, Quora, Reddit further confuses and depresses me - opinions about the rationality or irrationality of suicide vary, and I can't make up my own mind.

    I've browsed discussions about suicide here on TPF as well, mostly discussing suicide as an irrational act, but I just don't see it that way for myself.

    Why is suicide considered irrational in most cases? Why is choosing to keep on living seen as rational?

    Am I just lying to myself, convincing myself that life is worth it so I won't have to go through suicide?

    My mind keeps convincing me that the most rational thing one can do is, in fact, commit suicide.

    Over the years, I've mostly identified with philosophical pessimism and antinatalism, which may also shape my worldview. It's just that I cannot identify with anything else. And the fact that there are pessimists who have committed suicide also makes me wonder if that is a logical conclusion to this philosophy.

    I feel like I need some sort of meaning, a reason to keep going, but I can't seem to find one and instead obsess over the feeling that the only reason for this search is the fear of death and the complex act of suicide.

    TL, DR - I feel that living or continuing to live is an irrational choice, that by living, I am doing something irrational. There are only two options - to live or to die - is suicide, even for 'healthy' and 'sane' people, irrational?"
  • universeness
    6.3k

    You need to seek assistance from a qualified psychotherapist friend.
  • rossii
    33
    Well I did and still do, but with no help… really nobody understands my thinking or why I think this way.

    But talking philosophically - what are the reasons to reject promortalism? That is the question always on my mind
  • universeness
    6.3k
    really nobody understands my thinking or why I think this way.rossii

    I still feel haunted by my thoughts, thinking the only reason I continue to live (for now) is the fear of death. That seems like a pretty bad reason to live.rossii

    No-one is afraid of being dead, as when you are dead, you no longer exist, and cannot experience fear.
    People fear dying and the anticipation of such, not death.
    Do you mean that you are afraid of how you will die?
    You were oblivious before you were born, oblivion has no time or awareness aspect.
  • rossii
    33
    I'm not afraid of death. I am well aware that the process of dying might be painful; hence, suicide is perhaps not an easy decision to make (thing to do).

    I'm just contemplating the rationality of living.

    Is it rational to live, considering that I will eventually die anyway, so why postpone it? Moreover, by dying sooner, I can potentially avoid future suffering.

    As I said, I mostly identify as an antinatalist but struggle to justify why, as an antinatalist, I should go on living. This question constantly goes through my mind: if life is so bad, why endure it? If, for instance, one agrees with Benatar's antinatalism, then why is suicide not a reasonable response? Because that's what I perceive as a rational reaction to this standpoint. (links below)

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10790-022-09888-4

    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3184600
    author argues it's better to cease to exist, and in fact committed suicide

    So I don't really know how to answer this question for myself - why suicide or why not?
  • universeness
    6.3k
    Is it rational to live, considering that I will eventually die anyway, so why postpone it? Moreover, by dying sooner, I can potentially avoid future suffering.rossii
    You will also avoid future joy and the positive difference you could potentially make in the lives of others.
    Has your life always been solely about you? Have you never found common cause, or a sense of community with others?
    I personally see no value at all, in antinatalism. Perhaps a TPF member such as @schopenhauer1, who is an antinatalist, could explain to you why antinatalism, does not suggest that those who are alive should commit suicide.

    why suicide or why not?rossii
    As a stranger to you, I have an honest answer.For what it's worth to you, I would miss your questions.
  • Nils Loc
    1.4k
    So I don't really know how to answer this question for myself - why suicide or why not?rossii

    Why not explain the material and or psychological sources of your suffering.

    Maybe you have chronic gastritis and your stomach is digesting itself and as a result you also have chronic insomnia, which is not unrelated to your really bad sciatic pain. The world hasn't yet invented proton pump inhibitors, so you have to rely on calcium carbonate as an antacid remedy, which is contributing to the development of kidney stones. All this is happening while your mother has sudden onset dementia and she has gone missing. This is terrible because you really do love her, and found comfort through her after your significant other committed suicide. Of course you found it impossible to keep a job with all these other stressors going on and are now worried by losing your rented living space. Everything is falling apart.

    Burdened with this situation I might have committed suicide.

    How awful is your own life compared to the above scenario?
  • Vera Mont
    4.2k
    Is it rational to live, considering that I will eventually die anyway, so why postpone it? Moreover, by dying sooner, I can potentially avoid future suffering.rossii

    And save everyone else the burden of taking care of you.
    In a case of protracted terminal illness, especially when accompanied by great pain, suicide is a perfectly rational choice. Rational [non-bible-based] legal systems allow compassionate care-givers to assist suicide in those situations.
    I am at an age, and in a condition, where considering the options is quite sensible, even though I'm not there yet and hope not to have to decide for a few more years.

    But I think you've got it backwards. No biological organism needs to justify its existence: life just happens for no reason at all. Once you're in the world, and if you have any effect on the world, leaving it is more complicated. Others who do want to live may depend on you. You say your suicide would hurt people - that matters. You are responsible for the relationships and attachments you form.
    Is that enough reason to live? Other things being equal, it's a pretty good start.
    Then you could maybe find something that you can do for others. I don't know what your material situation is, but even homeless people on the very edge can help one another in some small way.
  • Nils Loc
    1.4k
    Antinatalists may fail to consider that because death is not an experience, in the same way being unconscious has no content/memory, that being and becoming someone/something is inevitable and eternal.

    There will always be something that it is like to be, because in sleep/unconsciousness/death time and space have no breadth or duration for a subject or non-subject.

    But this doesn't deny the value of annihilation in causing our troubles to cease, if we can't solve them by any other means. We are all headed for the wonderful drain, which will catapult the enigma of awareness of someone, somewhere, elsewhere.

    The tree of life will blossom and fruit its strangeness again (you, I and they). There will be no memory to permit us to say it happened again.

    You may become a creature who does not have the means (knowledge) to kill itself to end its own suffering. I don't want to become that turtle that got a straw stuck up its nose and have to live for years that way. That we believe that suicide is an option at all, is a strange privilege of radical self-determination. We should try to exercise that same self-determination in trying to untie the knots of our own personal suffering before we choose a final solution.
  • L'éléphant
    1.5k
    We should try to exercise that same self-determination in trying to untie the knots of our own personal suffering before we choose a final solution.Nils Loc
    I find it amazing how often people fail to see the point of existing. So they think of suicide as an "alternative". Once a person is an adult, their existence is their responsibility. (Note I said existence, not "life", for in the latter, one could be in a coma and is the charge of a medical team).
    Suppose I then ask this person who is contemplating suicide, because there's no point in his existence, to randomly kill a dog. I bet his response would be, "I can't do that. It's an innocent animal and I don't believe in cruelty to animals"! I'd say nonsense! Because he is ready to kill himself -- that is cruelty itself. He can't see the cruelty he is about to inflict to his own existence, but he can see it through the life of a dog. True story of some random person.
  • Nils Loc
    1.4k
    He can't see the cruelty he is about to inflict to his own existence, but he can see it through the life of a dog.L'éléphant

    In your scenario there is no reason for killing the dog because it is a random act, which makes it cruel and unnecessary.

    We would euthanize the dog without qualm if we knew the dog would be suffering until death. The question is whether or not the person who is seriously contemplating suicide can get outside of his/her own narrow perspective and initiate a transformation toward greater well being. Radical psychological change is possible. We should always consider trying to heal ourselves before ending it all.

    There was a guy I knew who lived next door who suffered some kind of progressive neurological disease coupled with a war injury to a nerve plexus in his back. He couldn't walk on his own, was stuck in a tilted chair and couldn't sleep. The burden on his wife to take care of him probably immense. I would of liked to hear whether he thought life was worth living at that point. He lived for quite a few years after the couple moved away. He should of had recourse to the option of euthanasia if he desired it.

    We're seldom privy to the details of one's suffering.
  • Alkis Piskas
    2.1k
    You will also avoid future joy and the positive difference you could potentially make in the lives of others.universeness
    I think @rossii has a point here. Just look at it from a totally rational point of view, i.e., with no emotions, negative or positive whatsoever. Also assume that there is no afterlife, that is no consiousness, no knowledge, no memories, no emotions continue to "exist" or "survive" after death.

    You say "You will also avoid future joy". Certainly. But what is the value of it if you won't take that joy with you after you die? Suppose that you die happy and in a great wellness. So what? Wouldn't that be lost together wih everything else? The only good thing in that case is that you avoid suffering. mental and/or physical, your last moments of your life. Yet, even if this wouldn't happen, suffering would end exactly as pleasure.

    As for the "positive difference you could potentially make in the lives of others", it is alsmost the same thing, only that it applies to others instead of yourself. With the exception that they they wouldn't think the way I described above.

    Now, there's a counter --or parallel-- logic that comes in: if it makes no difference if you live or die, why kill yourself and die sooner than the furure unavoidable, fatal conditions take place? And this, I believe, is a much "healthier" view.

    I'm certainly not an antinatalist nor a suicidal case. I enioy life but I'm ready to die at any moment. I only wish to die peacefully or instantly.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    no emotions, negative or positive whatsoever. Also assume that there is no afterlife, that is no consiousness, no knowledge, no memories, no emotions continue to "exist" or "survive" after death.Alkis Piskas

    You say "You will also avoid future joy". Certainly. But what is the value of it if you won't take that joy with you after you die?Alkis Piskas
    What value do you place on the notion of personal legacy Alkis?

    As for the "positive difference you could potentially make in the lives of others", it is alsmost the same thing, only that it applies to others instead of yourself.Alkis Piskas
    Do you think your life was well spent if it was spent, mostly helping others maintain, feel secure and feel valued and perhaps even progress, in their own life?

    I'm certainly not an antinatalist nor a suicidal case.Alkis Piskas
    I am glad for that.

    I enioy life but I'm ready to die at any moment. I only wish to die peacefully or instantly.Alkis Piskas
    That's ok imo, as long as you are also ready to live, at any moment and make the most you can, of the time you have. Live life as a wonder and not as a curse.
  • Alkis Piskas
    2.1k
    What value do you place on the notion of personal legacy Alkis?universeness
    If you mean if and how people are going to remember me, none.

    Do you think your life was well spent if it was spent, mostly helping others maintain, feel secure and feel valued and perhaps even progress, in their own life?universeness
    I help people when and if I can and I'm happy in doing that.
    Helping is a basic need in life. We see that not only in humans but in animals too. But, although in animals it is always done in a natural, instictive way, with humans it's very different. It can have a lot of faces and motives, other than being a genuine, natural and sincere action.

    Live life as a wonder and not as a curse.universeness
    I live life as an eternal spiritual being.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    If you mean if and how people are going to remember me, none.Alkis Piskas

    No, for me memorialisation is a part of legacy which is of very limited significance. I am more referring to cause and effect. The status quo of human civilisation, the good and the bad aspects of it, are a composite of all the decisions made, and actions taken, by all human lives that have already been lived. Some lives have been more significant perhaps, than others, when it comes to legacy. That is of course an individual judgment call (which is where memorialisation can be most useful). This is what legacy means to me.

    Rather flowery and overly dramatic sentences, such as 'standing on the shoulders of giants,' is an example, of how some humans relate to legacy (mostly in the science community).
    If legacy has no meaning to an individual human then, I personally can do no more and no less, than feel pity for such people. Do you think such a 'pity' response is unwarranted or disrespectful?

    Do you think your life was well spent if it was spent, mostly helping others maintain, feel secure and feel valued and perhaps even progress, in their own life?
    — universeness
    I help people when and if I can and I'm happy in doing that.
    Helping is a basic need in life. We see that not only in humans but in animals too. But, although in animals it is always done in a natural, instictive way, with humans it's very different. It can have a lot of faces and motives, other than being a genuine, natural and sincere action.
    Alkis Piskas
    That does not answer my 'yes' or 'no' question. Answering yes or no is quite possible as an overall judgment call, regardless of the nuances you wish to also consider.

    I live life as an eternal spiritual being.Alkis Piskas
    Fine, as long as you appreciate that you have employed two words/concepts in that sentence that currently, have zero demonstrable, objective evidence of any existent, that has such properties.
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