Please define your use of legitimate here.

I think professional sports of all sorts are prostitution; why single out sex?

Please define your use of legitimate here. — Ø implies everything

"Legitimate" is a loaded word.

"Conforming to the law or to rules" is the first meaning of legitimate. "Socially acceptable" often matches the first meaning of "legitimate". The laws and rules are often clear enough, but what is socially acceptable is variable from group to group. Sometimes what is socially acceptable is contrary to the law or rules (a major problem of Prohibition). Many gay men consider various kinds of public sex (tea rooms, cruising parks, etc.) as socially acceptable, even though it is prohibited by law and rules.

According to a YOUGOV [not a government operation] poll, Women judge prostitution more harshly than men and are more likely to think it should be legal. 51% of men and 30% of women think it should be legal, and 36% of men and 50% of women think it should be illegal.

why single out sex? — unenlightened

Hypothesize your reaction to a son or daughter coming to you and declaring their intention to begin a career as a sex worker vs. a sports professional. Wherein there is a difference lies the answer to your question. The open minded liberal tends to be open minded and liberal about prostitution as long as it's "them" that's doing it.

I think it should be legal, but would love to see a society where women aren’t essentially forced to do this kind of work.

Well, here goes one old trick's pony ...

Most prostitutes are women, but men also prostitute themselves.

Questions:

Is it a good thing that "prostitution" (under any name) is stigmatized? — BC

No.

Do you feel obligated to use the euphemism "sex worker" rather than prostitute or whore?

No. I prefer "hoe".

Is sex "work"?

When its transactional, hell yeah.

Is sex "an industry"?

No. Porn is an industry. Escorting is an industry. Brothels are an industry (e.g. Nevada, Amsterdam, Bangkok, Cologne). Massage Parlors are an industry. Marriage is an industry. "Sex" itself, however, is just an (often consensual) activity.

Is selling or buying sexual access a legitimate commercial activity?

I've heard it's the "oldest" ...

If selling sexual access is a legitimate commercial activity, should it be officially recognized, regulated, and commercially encouraged, like any other trade?

Yes, everywhere. (This may eliminate or substantially reduce sex trafficking.)

Is buying sex a legitimate, normal, moral act?

It is when buying from an unpimped hoe.

Do you think "sex workers" (as opposed to "prostitutes") freely choose to sell sex?

Unfortunately, all – most – do not.

Do you think adverse circumstances is the likely cause of people becoming prostitutes?

Some, female and male, sure.

Does promiscuous sexual activity reduce the need for people to buy sex?

Different kinks.

Is "unable to obtain sex any other way" a legitimate reason to use pr[ostitution?]

Hell yes – "unattractive" chronic masturbators need to get-off too!

Hypothesize your reaction to a son or daughter coming to you and declaring their intention to begin a career as a sex worker ... — Baden

Ah yeah, another reason to feel fortunate that I've remained childless.

I don't really have answers to your questions. I do have a comment on labels. Where I work, we've assisted many sex workers (street sex to brothel sex) who frequently also had substance issues and untreated mental health concerns. They usually prefer the term sex worker to prostitute as it is held as more respectful and less stigmatising. Like most folk, I am in favour of using language carefully in a way that is more likely to build respect. I believe there is such a thing as 'sex work' and this therefore needs protections and appropriate, safe conditions for those who undertake it.

Like with drugs, these activities are inherently dangerous, and criminalising them compounds the issue. It is crucial to incorporate a reliable legal framework that facilitates good conduct by providers and consumers of sex work. There's a huge difference between a legal brothel and someone selling themselves on the streets.

I'm of the view that there's nothing inherently wrong with the practice, provided the conditions aren't exploitative or shady. It can be treated like any other trade when conditions are under a safe legal framework.

Were I to meet a woman or a man, for that matter, selling sex I would not refer to them as a whore, and probably not as a prostitute, either--for the same reason that I would use the stated preferred pronouns of a trans person. It's a matter of politeness in public situations.

I'm not always polite--sometimes I'm just plain rude--but there is a reason for those instances. I might call Senate majority leader, Republican Mitch McConnell, an old whore for example. Ditto Donald Trump--maybe crazy old whore for him. I don't expect to get the chance in either case.

I don't object to sex work in principle, with several provisos attached--like it being uncoerced. The 'sex business' isn't subject to any regulation in the United States (just suppression except for some counties in Nevada). The chances of any given person in the sex business getting a raw deal are pretty high.

Have you seen the inside of a brothel? I have not; there are legal brothels only in some counties in Nevada. "No legal brothels" doesn't mean there are no illegal brothels of course. And presumably some of them, at least, are well run. Rebecca Rand was a Minneapolis madam who ran 2 upstanding brothels. At the time (in the 80s and 90s) there were 11 brothels in the Minneapolis and St. Paul dba "health clubs" or "massage parlors". She said, "There is nothing oppressive about prostitution; what is oppressive is going to jail." There were others, too, presumably, and other sex-for-sale businesses. "The Minneapolis Forum" was available in select establishments; it listed various sex-for-sale venues--not, of course, in so many words.

Hypothesize your reaction to a son or daughter coming to you and declaring their intention to begin a career as a sex worker vs. a sports professional. Wherein there is a difference lies the answer to your question. The open minded liberal tends to be open minded and liberal about prostitution as long as it's "them" that's doing it. — Baden

That's a good point, but the particular sport matters. MMA fighter? Boxer? I'd rather my kid be a sex worker. Ditto for any sports where doping is rampant.

Hell yes – "unattractive" chronic masturbators need to get-off too! — 180 Proof

They do, indeed. One of the features of gay bath houses (with which I'm pretty familiar) is that an appropriately sleazy operation provides dim to dark venues where the least attractive can find pleasure. Charles Shively at Harvard theorized that "mandatory promiscuity" would insure that everyone had the opportunity to experience pleasurable sex. (Hey, I did my part back in the day.). James Nelson at United Theological Seminary in his book Embodiment discusses the importance of persons with deformities, immobility, movement disorders, mental illness, etc. being able to experience the sexuality they are embodied with, (He didn't get into methods. It was a theology book, after all.) Sex workers are the obvious solution for both men an women, gay and straight. (Good luck getting funding through the legislature.).

The chances of any given person in the sex business getting a raw deal are pretty high. — BC

No question about that.

Is it a good thing that "prostitution" (under any name) is stigmatized? — BC

It's never a "good thing" to stigmatize a classification of people, whether the definition is limited or broad. In this case, it's so broad as to include - at least potentially - whole lot of people are are actually victims. Being powerless is quite bad enough without the moral brand on their foreheads.

Do you feel obligated to use the euphemism "sex worker" rather than prostitute or whore? — BC

No. I prefer to name each occupation accurately.

Is sex "work"? — BC

Very often, yes - whether it's part of a job, a contract, an obligation or a coerced subjection.

Is sex "an industry"? — BC

In the modern monetized world, every business is called an industry, whether it produces anything or not. If gambling on the stock market and usury are part of the "financial industry", then renting out human bodies as objects of pleasure is part of "the sex industry".

Is selling or buying sexual access a legitimate commercial activity? — BC

All legal ways of making money are legitimate.

f selling sexual access is a legitimate commercial activity, should it be officially recognized, regulated, and commercially encouraged, like any other trade? — BC

Of course it should be recognized, regulated, policed and taxed.
As for commercially encouraged, it's one of many that shouldn't be.

Is buying sex a legitimate, normal, moral act? — BC

Legitimate where legal; normal - only since the dawn of civilization; moral is matter of opinion, belief, circumstance and collateral damage.

Do you think "sex workers" (as opposed to "prostitutes") freely choose to sell sex? — BC

How are prostitutes and sex workers opposed? Very few people in this world are really free to choose what they sell - so much depends on the accessible market and the marketability of their assets. I have no idea what percentage of prostitutes and/or sex workers made the choice freely. I suspect, a small minority.

Do you think adverse circumstances is the likely cause of people becoming prostitutes? — BC

Sure. Adverse circumstances account for a good deal of what people do.

Does promiscuous sexual activity reduce the need for people to buy sex? — BC

Probably. For one thing, it cuts into their earning capacity. For another, they're either too tired or undergoing a course of treatments for an STD.

Is "unable to obtain sex any other way" a legitimate reason to use pr — BC

What does "unable" mean? Physical disability? Lack of charm? People with all kinds of handicaps date and marry successfully - if they make the effort or accept charity. For those unwilling to compromise, there is always the monastic alternative.
Does it mean such extreme loathsomeness of character that no member of the appropriate gender would willingly touch them? In that case, they're the most likely suspects in the - all too frequent - beating and murder of prostitutes, and it's not 'legitimate' for them to be loose in the world.

Where it's legal to commercialize sex, nobody needs to justify why they buy or sell the commodity. Where it's illegal, no justification is sufficient.

Wherein there is a difference lies the answer to your question. The open minded liberal tends to be open minded and liberal about prostitution as long as it's "them" that's doing it. — Baden

But you haven't said what that difference is. Yes, humans are hypocrites. Perhaps we are all nimbys in our various ways—

… I want ev'rybody to be free
But if you think that I'd let Barry Goldwater
Move in next door or marry my daughter
You must think I'm crazy… — Bob Dylan

And it is a dangerous and stigmatised profession, whereas sport is heroic, but the reason for that is — I'm not even going to say the word, I'm starting to bore myself... you do the gender maths, as they say.

Prostitution is mainly human trafficking and the exploitation of people in distress for entertainment purposes.

Prostitution is mainly human
trafficking and the exploitation of people in distress for entertainment purposes — Jacques

What about male prostitutes?

What about male prostitutes? — Joshs

We tend to see men as more capable of autonomous choice; less vulnerable. That is not invariably the case, and it certainly does not hold true for abused, addicted and homeless boys.

The open minded liberal tends to be open minded and liberal about prostitution as long as it's "them" that's doing it. — Baden

Whereas, many conservatives in 'liberal' cultures have no objection to sexual coercion under the guise of matrimony, and don't object to their children marrying "up" on the socio-economic scale, but do object to their children marrying "beneath" them. Entire conservative cultures have no problem selling their daughters and bullying their sons into arranged marriages. Isn't that part of the sex trade?

As for sports - professional athletes are bought and sold in a specialized international market and nobody thinks anything of it.

Hypothesize your reaction to a son or daughter coming to you and declaring their intention to begin a career as a sex worker vs. a sports professional. — Baden

Better either one than smuggler or soldier, I guess... Next, I'd want to know which sport on the scale of brain damage or irreparable injury by age 30, vs what manner of sex worker on the scale of violent encounters and STD's.
On the whole, I'd prefer everyone's children a better range of choices available to them.

What about male prostitutes? — Joshs

As far as I know this applies to all possible sexes and genders.

What about male prostitutes?
— Joshs

As far as I know this applies to all possible sexes and genders. — Jacques

I have plenty of acquaintances who worked as erotic masseurs or escorts. Most came from good backgrounds free of abuse, and there no coercion associated with their experience as sex workers. The gay male sex industry is different in this respect from female sex work.

Numbers on the trafficking of males are challenging to estimate and considered underreported; however, the United Nations estimates that boys account for 15% of global trafficking victims, and adult men account for 20%.

https://www.theorphanshands.org/human-trafficking-victims-include-boys-and-men-too/

Numbers on the trafficking of males are challenging to estimate and considered underreported

I'm always on guard when a report says that something is very difficult to measurer or hard to track, that there is not nearly enough solid information available, etc. AND THEN come out with an estimate which, according to their earlier statements, is probably not very accurate.

Still, I'm sure boys and men are trapped into prostitution. trafficking happens to women far more often and that's probably as much as can be confidently said -- until someone traipses through the sewers of sex trafficking and nails down hard numbers.

Sexual behavior, in general, is challenging to track because most people tend to behave sexually in private, and don't publicize what, exactly, they did.

The core nature of sex work may not differ around the world, but the details certainly do, depending on the culture, the local economy, "the local" in general.

The urgency of AIDS prevention efforts has helped researchers get behind some of the privacy screens people maintain. But the success of AIDS prevention varies from place to place too.

*****

If one doesn't have police records, or the police enforce law differentially, then one has to rely on participant observers, outside observers, and surveys. In surveys or interviews, self-definition matters. A man might think of himself as a whore (low self-esteem), a prostitute (better self-esteem), a sex worker (better esteem yet) or an entrepreneur (very robust self-esteem). Or, he may cleanly separate the sex work he performs from what he thinks about himself.

In affluent countries, one can carry out stealth sex work. You have heard the phrase, "slept his or her way to the top". I know a guy who did exactly that in the wake of gay liberation (back in the 70s). He was not a man of means but he was young, ambitious, good looking, charming enough and reasonably talented. He chose his partners carefully on the basis of their ability to help him get ahead. (Stupid me never thought of that approach.). Within a few years he was running a new national gay organization in Washington, D.C.

However, all that is about a small group of men. For most men, sex work is just a means to an immediate income, the way a million other jobs are, whether that's in an affluent or poor country. There are advantages and disadvantages, upsides and downsides.

I'm always on guard when a report says that something is very difficult to measurer or hard to track, that there is not nearly enough solid information available, etc. AND THEN come out with an estimate which, according to their earlier statements, is probably not very accurate. — BC

Which is probably lower than the actual figure. The UN doesn't usually exaggerate. For damn sure, even if the actual number is less than estimated, it's more than 0.
https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/press/releases/2021/February/share-of-children-among-trafficking-victims-increases--boys-five-times-covid-19-seen-worsening-overall-trend-in-human-trafficking--says-unodc-report.html nobody denies that the majority of sex trafficking victims is female; what they're saying is that the recent trend targets younger victims.
The important thing to understand in this regard is not knowing for sure what percent is intended for sexual exploitation, but that there is an active, growing, lucrative trade in captive human flesh, both male and female, adult and juvenile. A large - if unspecified - number of people are enslaved.
That's not about sex as a commodity or sex work as a free choice; it's about coercion.

I wasn't quibbling over the ghastliness of human trafficking, just the stats.

Do you think the sex trade, as it functions today, is in the main, a product of patriarchy?
Do male owners profit most or do you think that there are as many nefarious, powerful 'madames' and female dominated organised crime groups, who control/own the majority of the organised sex trade?
Do you think the majority of the global sex trade is organised?
Do you think the majority of the global sex trade is controlled by organised crime?

As a socialist, would you attempt to bring the sex trade under state control and ownership and offer sex workers the exact same protections as any unionised workers receive?

I wasn't quibbling over the ghastliness of human trafficking, just the stats. — BC

To what end? They said the figure was an estimate. Whether men and boys constitute 10, 15 or 20% of an [estimated by the US state department] 6 million, 6.5 million or 7 million, it's a substantial number of male victims world-wide. I was attempting to refute the popular impression that coercion applies only to women.

Is it a good thing that "prostitution" (under any name) is stigmatized?
Do you feel obligated to use the euphemism "sex worker" rather than prostitute or whore?
Is sex "work"?
Is sex "an industry"?
Is selling or buying sexual access a legitimate commercial activity?
If selling sexual access is a legitimate commercial activity, should it be officially recognized, regulated, and commercially encouraged, like any other trade?
Is buying sex a legitimate, normal, moral act?
Do you think "sex workers" (as opposed to "prostitutes") freely choose to sell sex?
Do you think adverse circumstances is the likely cause of people becoming prostitutes?
Does promiscuous sexual activity reduce the need for people to buy sex?
Is "unable to obtain sex any other way" a legitimate reason to use pr
2 days ago — BC

No.
No.
It can be.
Oh yes.
It can be.
Yes. Taxed too.
It can be.
Don't know.
Don't know.
Don't know.
As legitimate as any other reason, I suppose.

Is it a good thing that "prostitution" (under any name) is stigmatized? — BC

An interesting an multifaceted question. I think the total acceptance and normalization isn’t beneficial. Going to brothel shouldn’t be as normal as going to the gym (where you pay for doing physical exercise that you could basically do without the charge).

Obviously sex is a natural part of human relationship. However making the sex trade totally illegal will have it’s negative consequences.

It seems that a permissive society where sex isn’t confined to marriage is what really decreases prostitution. Which I think has been an improvement.

When Sweden’s Social Democratic government introduced its zero-tolerance policy for buyers of sex in 1999, it became the first country in the world to prohibit the purchase of sexual services...
There were dire predictions about what would happen when purchasing sexual services became illegal, alongside offering any assistance to prostitutes,...
But 17 years later, attitudes have changed.

What do you think of criminalizing the buyer rather than the seller?

That's exactly what happened in Sweden. The purchase was illegal, the sale wasn't. :up: