And at no time has what is true changed, but only what we believe to be true. Although it could also happen that the number of chromosomes might change.
By all means let us be open to revision and reversal of what we believe according to what we later learn to be true, but not according to what we later find to be convenient — unenlightened
And basically that's true for all of us, so far as I can tell. — Srap Tasmaner
If a belief is true, there can be no evidence that it's false, so you'll never need to revise your belief. If such evidence does turn up, in addition to revising your belief, you also remove the "true" sticker from it. So what? What was the sticker doing anyway? — Srap Tasmaner
Now when we accuse someone of holding a belief because it's convenient for them, I think often we're talking about something they're not aware they're doing. What we perceive is that holding such a belief serves some need of theirs, again probably something they're not aware of. — Srap Tasmaner
I believe it is true that my key will open the front door — unenlightened
that phrase is redundant — unenlightened
I defend the meaning of the word against the destruction of its meaning with some vigor, because if the truth becomes a matter of choice, or convenience, then language itself loses its value, and we become as dumb beasts, because meaning depends on truth. Unless we can trust in the truth of language, we must dismiss its meaning entirely. Chaos will reign, but no one will listen to its proclamations. — unenlightened
Language presumes truth, because if it is not presumably true it has no presumable meaning — unenlightened
I don't see how. If I say something to you like "the pub is at the end of the road", you'll be able to do anything with that exactly and only to the extent that you trust me. It seems trust, not truth here is doing the work. You're not expecting me to be 100% right, you're expecting that I'm not deliberately trying to get you to the end of the road for nefarious purposes. It my intentions that matter, not my unfailing accuracy. — Isaac
Must everyone only speak when guaranteed to pass all accuracy tests in perpetuity? — Isaac
i see that you are making up what I say and are not honestly engaging — unenlightened
Fucksake, not this shite again. Must every challenge be 'dishonest' these days, every disagreement 'disinformation', every ideological difference 'bigotry'.... — Isaac
you play this silly game of universalising the opposition in an attempt to humiliate and silence. — unenlightened
I don't see it that way. I think it just means that truth is a secondary principle. — T Clark
Bullshit on, dude. See what you want to see, no worries. — unenlightened
I'm willing to discuss my anger with someone prepared to admit to their own. — unenlightened
And basically that's true for all of us, so far as I can tell. — Srap Tasmaner
"Just not clear to me what the word "true" is doing in this story. " — unenlightened
I think when you say, "Just not clear to me what the word "true" is doing in this story. ", you are deceiving yourself, and saying something that is not true. I believe it is true that my key will open the front door, and if it should turn out not to be true because the lock is broken, or my wife has changed the lock or someone has blown the bloody door off, or the god of locks is angry with me, then I will have to admit I was wrong. — unenlightened
We don't have the option of only speaking the truth; if we had some way of just knowing how things really stand, it wouldn't take so much work to find out. But we do have the option of only saying what we do in fact believe, and what we believe aligns with the available evidence, and what we believe we can give good reasons for that others should find convincing. — Srap Tasmaner
But I do point out that that option that we do have, that you outline, is a moral imperative arising from the social nature of language, that it is shared. — unenlightened
I'm not familiar with the principles of Huna, or with the notion of Chaos Magic. But, I long ago, realized that one feature common to all forms of magic --- Taro cards, divination, astrology, incantations, alchemy, sorcery, spirit mediation --- is dependence on confusing the rational mind with chaos, or misdirection, of some kind.— The central defining tenet of chaos magic is arguably the idea that belief is a tool for achieving effects. — HarryHarry
I am not asking for more. But I do point out that that option that we do have, that you outline, is a moral imperative arising from the social nature of language, that it is shared. As we are seeing, a medium that is filled with too much dishonest communication, like the boy who cried wolf, ceases to communicate at all - and this has implications for freedom of speech - that the freedom to speak honestly the truth as best one can, should absolutely be defended, but the freedom to lie, deceive and mislead should be curtailed as strongly as possible while allowing for our fallibility and stupidity. — unenlightened
So I'm not seeing how honesty is serving the purpose you've assigned it (making communication functional). If I ask you where the train station is, I'm far less interested in your honesty than I am in where the actual train station actually is. I want you to be right, not honest. — Isaac
(Btw, there's a game-theory based argument for truthfulness and trust in David Lewis's Convention, the details of which are not leaping to mind.) — Srap Tasmaner
mistaken guy can be expected to act on his mistaken belief, but deceitful guy we would expect to act on his genuine belief. — Srap Tasmaner
I wondered how we would be able to talk about the 'behavior' of things like signposts, and I'm sure we could come up with something, but it could also be that we inevitably face problems with artifacts like this. — Srap Tasmaner
I wondered how we would be able to talk about the 'behavior' of things like signposts, and I'm sure we could come up with something, but it could also be that we inevitably face problems with artifacts like this. — Srap Tasmaner
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