• Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.9k

    To me, this forum is like the friends you were refering to. In the wild world, this sort of calm discussion is rare. People often overreact and get straight defensive which is utterly uncondusive to sorting things out.

    Lies, calumny, rank knavery! How dare you assert such. I oppose all that you say and shall not dignify it with a response except to declare that it is evil, folly, heresy!
  • Hailey
    69
    Perhaps we do not live in the same world. I'm glad for you based on what you said.
  • Vera Mont
    4.4k
    It's sometimes scary and helpless when you find yourself contrary to what you believe you are.Hailey

    Probably one of the scariest things you have to face. But wanting to have an open mind, making the effort to understand how you think and why you believe is already a very big stride forward. You are already winning! The safest way forward - besides anonymous forums, some of which do become adversarial at times - is by way of books. I don't mean how-to books about logical thinking; I mean good novels, that let you into the minds of fictional people - and indirectly, the author. You can argue with them, warn them of stupid mistakes, witness their errors in judgment, berate them for idiotic decisions - and they never get defensive or abusive.
  • Hailey
    69
    The safest way forward - besides anonymous forums, some of which do become adversarial at times - is by way of books. I don't mean how-to books about logical thinking; I mean good novels, that let you into the minds of fictional people - and indirectly, the author.Vera Mont

    Thank you, you are both kind and wise. Interestingly, this is exactly what I thought I might lack (in an effort to trying to think a step ahead of myself)! Reading too much nonfiction and too little fiction and novels, not to mention that I have very limited life experience, I'm totally foolish and ignorant about the human condition. Good books can be part of the solution. Thank you for your guidance.
  • Vera Mont
    4.4k
    Good books can be part of the solution.Hailey

    They're not just good for you; they taste good, too. And don't go looking for a list of must-reads or anything like that - just wander through a thrift store or public library and pick up whatever appeals to you. If it turns out to be crap, put it down and pick up something else. You'll soon find out what you like and it won't be much longer before you can see why one is better than another.
    Are schools not teaching literature anymore?
  • Alkis Piskas
    2.1k
    In a society where govenments try to tell you what is true and raise you into believing what you believe, in a world that is ever more dividing, when we're looking at news or whatever is going on around us, how do we know what to believe in?Hailey
    Maybe "believe in" is a little too much? It actually means to have faith or confidence in the existence of something. OK, I assume you mean just "believe".
    Now, it is well known --since the antiquity-- that politicians lie. So believing everything they say it's naive, at best.
    Then, who else is known to be lying in public on political and social matters in general, and in fact in greater scale? Isn't journalists?

    What we believe or not has to do with our likes and dislikes, our biases and prejudices, our ability to think critically, and other factors that act as "filters" to our reception and processing of information.

    As far as I am concerned, none of them has made me (in my adult life) and cannot make me believe anything. Especially "raising" me. If I believe something or not depends on a lot of things.
    And, if I consider an information important enough, and I have doubt about its truth, I try to cross-check it, online or offline. That's all I can do.
  • Hailey
    69
    By the age when you begin to notice discrepancies between what you are told and what you see or experience, your basic value system is established, and you tend to judge every new datum according to that standard. It is at this stage - say age 9-12 - that children should be encouraged to read widely, from and about other cultures, other time periods, other ways of life and of thought. It is therefore, exactly at this stage that closed, jealous, insecure cultures most fiercely protect their young from outside influences. In those environments, it becomes much more difficult to educate yourself and exercise judgment.Vera Mont

    So true. This is the stage where these cultures do harm to people. But there are so many people, conforming to these restraints, are at peace inside. They would not be challenged especially not by themselves and they are just happy and content with their circumstance. For others, such discrepancies led to confusion, struggle, disbelief, and pain.
  • Vera Mont
    4.4k
    Not much you can do about your nature. Conceal it, if questioning leads to punishment; maybe try to fit in despite your doubts - but the inner turmoil is something you have to resolve in your own way. Some people escape; some fight; some try to change the system by moderate means; some find clandestine ways to get the information they need.

    I remember my elders huddled around a radio lat at night, somebody all the time fiddling with the tuning knob, trying to get a clear enough sound from Radio Free Europe... which they didn't know was American propaganda. University students would save up their allowance to buy used copies of banned western books. Tourists from abroad were plied with food and drink to tell stories of life on the other side of the iron curtain.
    They were so hungry for news of the free world.

    Once out, most of those same people got busy making a living, trying to get ahead, making a buck, pushing their kids to succeed, and stopped paying attention to the news, watched westerns and hockey instead. They learned that the streets are not paved with gold; that the huddled masses are not welcomed with open arms; that the unbounded opportunity of the free world was oversold.
    Yet they go on excoriating the system from which they come: they have their bitter memories of loss, privation, restrictions - don't want a balanced view.

    Only a few are motivated by a desire for clarity; few take the trouble to inform themself and form a balanced view.
  • Hailey
    69
    Looks like I'll spend more time in the library :D. I guess literature is not required since high school because students are under too much pressure for Gaokao, the college entrance exame in China. Plus, students/people are deluged with fragmented info from their social media.
  • Hailey
    69
    And I'd go further to note that I couldn't answer the question for you -- how do you know I'm not from the government, spreading false beliefs about believing your senses first?Moliere

    Exactly, in fact, just as you mentioned, if I doubt the info I got from the Chinese media, then how can I know that westerners are not molded into their belief systems by their country. I can't help but think that, in China, we have lots of misinformation about life in the west, then similarly, you could have loads of misinformation about China given that the news your media spread may be more ideology-based rather than truth-based. So now I feel that I can't believe both parties for what they were saying; I can't know what is true anymore. To give you an example, the western countries claim that the Chinese govenment violates human rights in centain areas, which of course, is not the story our govenment would tell. Indeed, Chinese govenment traditionally lacks transparency in these issues, but if I draw conclusion simply based on that, then I'm not being fair.
  • Vera Mont
    4.4k
    You are off an adventure, a quest, an epic journey. May the wind always be at your back!
  • Moliere
    4.8k
    :)

    I'm pleased to see you thinking through the problem. It's something I tend to think about, once and again.

    The reason I say the guide is the senses has to do with my time as an activist. I am no longer an activist, so don't trust this as a forever-truth -- one of the things I learned as an activist is that it's too easy to think you have a forever-truth, at least for the philosophically inclined.

    But then the world you live within has a way of interrupting thoughts and forever-truths and even certain truths.

    ****

    A dark note -- "violates human rights" in the universal sense is something the United States does. Not in an "on occasion" basis, but of course this will involve a discussion on what human rights are, and when they are worth violating (like war).

    But if "human rights" has any meaning outside of the nation, at least, then the U.S. is really good at killing people -- sometimes in the name of war, but sometimes in the name of selling weapons.
  • punos
    561


    In a society where governments try to control information, the probability of information being true may be lower than in a society with more transparency. It is better to assign probabilities of truth instead of settling on a belief. To critically evaluate the information received using Bayesian logic, one should consider the prior probability of the information being true, update it based on new evidence, and assign probabilities of truth based on the credibility of the sources.

    For example, if a news outlet has a history of accurate reporting, you may assign a higher probability to the information they provide. On the other hand, if a source has a history of spreading misinformation or propaganda, you may assign a lower probability to the information they provide. Additionally, you can seek out multiple sources of information and compare them to see if they agree or disagree on a particular topic. This can help you identify biases or inconsistencies in the information you receive. Finally, you can also consider your own biases and beliefs, and how they may influence your interpretation of the information.

    This approach is more flexible and open-minded than settling on a belief, which can be resistant to change even in the face of new evidence. Assigning probabilities of truth allows you to acknowledge the uncertainty inherent in many situations, and to make decisions based on the best available evidence. It is a more rational and adaptive approach to navigating the information field in a complex and ever-changing world than simply settling on a belief.
  • Hailey
    69
    Thank you for your encouragement and support :D. BTW, I followed your advice on reading and it does bring me peace and fulfillment. I'm wondering if you could recommend me a forum for books, hopefully as active and wonderful as this one :). Thank you in advance!
  • Vera Mont
    4.4k
    I'm wondering if you could recommend me a forum for books,Hailey

    I have not been on one for a considerable time now. I did belong to one - my first ever forum on my first ever internet connection via landline - in the mid 90's, but was suspended for sarcasm and never went back. You could do worse than check out Goodreads. It's in the amazon empire, but it lists all the titles you're ever likely to need, with blurbs and reviews, and it has a number of subgroups you can join. Quite nice people hang out there, along with the usual assortment of arrogant smartasses.
  • Hailey
    69
    Haha, I see. Thanks.
  • Vera Mont
    4.4k
    In conversation with The Other, I learned that Readers' Favorites is another site that lists lots of books by genre, and you can download new ones free.
  • Hailey
    69

    Fatanstic, I'll look into it. Thank you :)
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