• Isaiasb
    48
    Most people today claim philosophy does not impact their lives, nor do they believe in having a philosophy at all. Agnostics and atheists alike fight for their belief in nonbelief, and their desire to be contemptuous in believing nothing. No matter what we have a philosophy, because this is the core of any person. If a person is a Stoic, they would act differently than a Platonic. Whether or not they claim the philosophy, they will still act the same way. This is similar to me believing I don’t have an ethnicity, I may not claim my ethnicity doesn't change where I am from. These are easy examples but there are large implications for different secular philosophies. Most people who do not claim a philosophy struggle to accept this simple fact, but having a philosophy is not a bad thing. If a person desires to spend all of his time at work instead of his kids, this would be a bad thing to do. The only way to know this would be inherently wrong is to have a philosophy, which directs our morals and beliefs. Postmodernism, which is the absence of absolute truth, declares we can’t know everything out there so we are all right in our beliefs, which is what most secular people believe. In a sense, we have fallen back into Nihilism methodology and this belief was also fought by Plato in his Dialogues. The battle for absolute truth is the biggest philosophical problem since the beginning of time. If absolute truth isn’t true, where do we draw the line between good and bad, murder and manslaughter, theft and taking back what you are owed? On the flip side, if absolute truth is true, what is it, and can it be obtained?

    From my own perspective on the issue of Truth, I believe the belief in Absolute Truth comes from if a person believes in God. If someone believes in the Orthodox Christian God, the belief in Truth becomes easy to conceptualize because John 14:6 specifies Jesus is truth. If Jesus is truth the entire Godhead is truth because the Godhead is of the same nature. From these foundational beliefs it can be inferred that if God is Truth, anything of God is of truth. If God being Truth is tied to his nature, then Absolute Truth is real but cannot be reached. Our limited human knowledge forces us to attempt to obtain this Absolute Truth but ultimately we cannot obtain it, only we can focus our eyes on Him and allow ourselves to receive the Truth that God wants us to receive. If God is Truth, he is the truth bearer. Some big verses to prove my previous claim are:

    “For the Lord gives wisdom;

    From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.”

    -Proverbs 2:6

    “For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans for prosperity and not for disaster, to

    give you a future and a hope.”

    -Jeremiah 29:11

    “Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His

    judgments and unfathomable His ways!

    -Romans 11:33

    These verses unpack the true volume of knowledge and wisdom, and how he is the deliverer of knowledge and wisdom. If God isn’t Truth, it means he isn’t omnipotent, which declares God not being God. From the Christian perspective Absolute Truth as Plato proclaimed 400 years before Christ has walked amongst us, not only as a Proclaimer of the Truth but as an Incarnation of the Truth.

    The most common perspective I have heard from Atheists, who disagree with Absolute Truth, is cultural moral relativism. This is best defined as morality being defined by the culture as a whole, unto which no culture is greater than another and morality cannot be relative on the individual level only the cultural level. Absolute Truth cannot exist on the Secular level because Absolute Truth needs to be given by someone who knows all, for truth is only given by someone who is smarter than the truth. In a sense a teacher gives a law to their student, he must be greater than the student if the law is true, because you cannot teach something you don’t comprehend. The critique I have of cultural moral relativism can be compressed into one simple word, paradox. Absolute Truth given by an all-knowing teacher is the only belief that doesn’t inherently produce a paradox. Some paradoxes that need to be considered are: How can culturally relative truth be influenced by Globalism and how do we determine who morals to follow, are you allowed to keep your culturally relative morals if you immigrate to another area or do you need to change to the common cultural morals, do we go to war if genocide is being committed but is being accepted as culturally moral. These are simple questions that could be answered but I don’t believe they all can be answered without attempting to establish an Absolute Truth without knowing it. Some quotes that attempt to back up cultural moral relativism to prove I’m not deceiving the reader are the following[a]:

    “Morality differs in every society, and is a convenient term for socially approved habits.”

    -Ruth Benedict (Patterns of Culture, 1934)

    "The notion of right is in the folkways. It is not outside of them, of independent origin, and brought to test them. In the folkways, whatever is, is right."

    -William Graham Sumner

    The second most common perspective derives from Buddhism. This is that truth is on an individual level and that Truth exists outside of us. They believe that truth is a way to oppress people and do not hold factual beliefs unless through meditation. They believe that Absolute Truth is revealed through meditation but the incarnation of truth differs from person to person. So in a way, Truth exists outside of us, but the way it is perceived changes depending on the person. This is similar to cultural moral relativism but with the major distinction of Absolute Truth existing but it is impersonal. As Christians, we have a personal Truth, through the Incarnation of Christ, but they believe only through works can Truth be revealed to us. One major quote that points to this common belief says, “The Buddha's Teaching is the Ultimate Truth of the world. Buddhism, however, is not a revealed or an organized religion. It is the first example of the purely scientific approach applied to questions concerning the ultimate nature of existence. This timeless Teaching was discovered by the Buddha Himself without the help of any divine agency.”.

    In conclusion, belief in God declares Absolute Truth, but if a person does not believe in God Truth cannot exist. From its core Truth has to be personal because it needs a person to give the Truth, and Truth needs its teacher to be above the student. Thus, Truth needs to be revealed to us by a God that knows everything. Jesus is not only Truth, not only personal Truth, but he is the physical incarnation of Truth that has been revealed to us through the cross. Through the cross and His resurrection, we not only can affirm his teachings as the Truth, but He is the Incarnation of the personal Truth delivered to us so that God can save us from ourselves.

    Bibliography:

    All scripture from NASB 2020:

    "Holy Bible, New American Standard (2020)" & "NASB2020" & "New American Standard Bible (2020)”

    [a] Rachels, J. (1999). The Challenge of Cultural Relativism. https://faculty.uca.edu/rnovy/Rachels--Cultural%20Relativism.htm

    Sri Dhammananda Maha Thera, K. (n.d.). The Ultimate Truth. What Buddhists Believe. https://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/56.htm
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    Agnostics and atheists alike fight for their belief in nonbelief, and their desire to be contemptuous in believing nothing.Isaiasb

    Why do you believe that?
  • Isaiasb
    48
    For a few reasons, the biggest is that it is a new thing. For all of human history until the last century Atheism was seen as something that is false. Atheism fights a God they don't believe in. In doing so they replaced God with Science, and in doing so they don't have to worry about a higher power with higher morals.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    For a few reasons, the biggest is that it is a new thing. For all of human history until the last century Atheism was seen as something that is false. Atheism fights a God they don't believe in. In doing so they replaced God with Science, and in doing so they don't have to worry about a higher power with higher morals.Isaiasb

    None of that answers my question. I get the impression you don't actually know any atheists or agnostics well enough to have much understanding of the way they think.
  • Vera Mont
    4.2k
    Most people today claim philosophy does not impact their lives, nor do they believe in having a philosophy at all.Isaiasb
    How do you know what most people claim? Most of the people I've met didn't make any claims at all regarding philosophy.
    Agnostics and atheists alike fight for their belief in nonbelief, and their desire to be contemptuous in believing nothing.
    For their right to believe or not believe according to their own lights, and for their right to feel respect or contempt or whatever another's belief merits in their estimation. Religionists, Christian and Muslim both, force their belief, rules and practices onto everyone they can dominate, and so we have no option but to fight.
    No matter what we have a philosophy, because this is the core of any person.
    OK that's as valid as any opinion.
    If a person is a Stoic, they would act differently than a Platonic. Whether or not they claim the philosophy, they will still act the same way.
    It's true: everyone acts some way, according to their inclination, circumstances and ability.
    Most people who do not claim a philosophy struggle to accept this simple fact,
    There you go again, reading most people's minds without even asking their permission.
    The only way to know this would be inherently wrong is to have a philosophy, which directs our morals and beliefs.
    No kidding!
    Postmodernism, which is the absence of absolute truth, declares we can’t know everything out there so we are all right in our beliefs,
    I don't think it declares anything at all.
    In a sense, we have fallen back into Nihilism methodology
    Back? Methodology?
    The battle for absolute truth is the biggest philosophical problem since the beginning of time.
    Battle between what opposing forces? Where is this absolute truth located?
    If absolute truth isn’t true, where do we draw the line between good and bad, murder and manslaughter, theft and taking back what you are owed?
    We muddle through with legal guidelines, reason, considering the circumstances, deliberating among ourselves.
    On the flip side, if absolute truth is true, what is it, and can it be obtained?
    It doesn't exist and cannot be obtained.

    In conclusion, belief in God declares Absolute Truth, but if a person does not believe in God Truth cannot exist.Isaiasb
    Oh, OK. So is this the god depicted in the bible? The one who drowned all the animals and children because he was pissed off by some men's disobedience, after he already threw their ancestors out of Eden for the same offense, then cursed a son who accidentally caught a glimpse of his drunk old man's wrinkled appendage, and impregnated a young virgin so she could have a baby in a barn and raise him to be brutally murdered in order to pay the debt he himself had placed on the people?
    I doubt that god would know the difference between murder and manslaughter, he committed and instigated so many of both. I don't think OT law would suit "most people today".
  • Isaiasb
    48
    Then enlighten me on what they think.
  • Vera Mont
    4.2k
    Then enlighten me on what they think.Isaiasb

    Even if I dedicated my life to your enlightenment, don't think I would have sufficient time.
  • Isaiasb
    48
    We muddle through with legal guidelines, reason, considering the circumstances, deliberating among ourselves.Vera Mont
    This is my point, the We is ambiguous because it would be the government that decided what is okay or not. Which in turn would create more North Koreas or another USSR. And yes those things happened, because if God does exist he is allowed to do anything he wants, we all disobeyed God and deserve hell, but he chose to save us that’s the beauty of the Old Testament. And the Old Testament wasn’t written for today it’s like saying Ancient Greece laws wouldn’t work today. God didn’t impose any debt, just as though a bank loans money doesn’t create the debt if the people can’t pay them back the loan.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    Then enlighten me on what they think.Isaiasb

    Nah, you'll have to step outside your cultural bubble and learn what atheists and agnostics think for yourself, if you want to see through the propaganda that you have been fed.
  • Isaiasb
    48
    Ironically I have been an atheist longer than I have a Christian.
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    This looks more like proselytising than philosophy.

    I think you need to make an actual argument and provide some sort of supporting evidence (as opposed to a claim) for why Christianity and not Islam or Zoroastrianism or Hinduism, etc holds the truth.

    You can't use a holy book to prove the contents of that holy book, as this is circular logic (using the Bible/Koran to prove the Bible/Koran is a rookie mistake) and the world is full of holy books with claims. Which to pick? Faith? Appeals to faith are common and unfortunately there's nothing you can't justify using such a flexible and emotionally driven approach. Faith has justified slavery, Apartheid, Nazism, the persecution of minorities as well as good things, so it is defiantly not a reliable tool.

    I personally don't beleive in 'absolute truth'. The word 'absolute' is superfluous. It's enough to be getting on with just identifying truth. Truth is an abstract that consists of different things in different situations. E.g., the truth about how you feel about a parent, for instance, is different to the type of truth that tells us what year Kennedy was assassinated. Truth is slippery.

    Perhaps you could try to demonstrate the truth of your belief without making appeals to an old book to prove the claims in that old book. Circularity is unhelpful. :wink:

    Ironically I have been an atheist longer than I have a Christian.Isaiasb

    Not sure that is ironic. Many people go back and forth and there are some very poor atheists out there.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    Ironically I have been an atheist longer than I have a Christian.Isaiasb

    Were you a person who believed nothing when you were an atheist?
  • Isaiasb
    48
    I only used Christian sources for the Christian, for unbelievers I use nonreligious sources. The first part is defending Absolute Truth for the Christian, the rest was for non believers. The latter part is entirely dedicated to nonchristians and never mentions the bible.
  • Isaiasb
    48
    I didn't believe in Absolute Truth but I was confident in my beliefs.
  • Tom Storm
    9k


    What is your definition of absolute truth?
  • Vera Mont
    4.2k
    This is my point, the We is ambiguous because it would be the government that decided what is okay or not.Isaiasb

    It's better than being stoned to death for using a nonsense word to express displeasure when a can of tomato soup galls on your foot.

    Which in turn would create more North Koreas or another USSR.Isaiasb

    I do not agree that a legal system causes dictatorship. But if that were true, it would certainly be more true of a theocracy than a democracy.

    And the Old Testament wasn’t written for todayIsaiasb
    Well, that's relief! So, when do you unveil the new tablets?

    God didn’t impose any debt, just as though a bank loans money doesn’t create the debt if the people can’t pay them back the loan.Isaiasb

    When all the power is one side, that's an imposition, because the people can't pay up, because the bank determined their circumstances as well as the terms of the contract.
  • Isaiasb
    48
    The platonic definition of Truth.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    I didn't believe in Absolute Truth but I was confident in my beliefs.Isaiasb

    So why is it that you weren't able to look at your own experience of being an atheist and recognize the following statement as nonsense?

    Agnostics and atheists alike fight for their belief in nonbelief, and their desire to be contemptuous in believing nothing.Isaiasb
  • Vera Mont
    4.2k
    the rest was for non believers. The latter part is entirely dedicated to nonchristians and never mentions the bible.Isaiasb

    You didn't deny that your god is the one depicted in the bible. Is it or isn't it? Which version of deity are you talking about?
  • Isaiasb
    48
    How else would those systems come into place? Most dictators remove religion or change it to fit their agenda. If God does exist he is allowed to do whatever he wants, so why would we then impose our own morals over it?
  • Isaiasb
    48
    Considering Christianity is mentioned throughout it, yes it is Christ Jesus.
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    Agnostics and atheists alike fight for their belief in nonbelief, and their desire to be contemptuous in believing nothing.Isaiasb

    What is this meant to mean? Seems like you have a poor knowledge of atheism. Most contemporary atheists hold that atheism applies to one thing only - whether you have good reason to believe in gods. It does not necessarily say there are no gods, just that there isn’t good reason to accept the proposition. I know atheists who believe in astrology, ghosts, reincarnation all kinds of things. Believing in nothing is unusual.

    The platonic definition of TruthIsaiasb

    Meaning what? You are a Christian idealist?
  • Vera Mont
    4.2k
    "Christ Jesus
    Isaiasb;840262"

    What makes him a god?

    How else would those systems come into place? Most dictators remove religion or change it to fit their agenda.Isaiasb
    Through religious wars, conquest and royal edict. And most of the dictators in history have not removed religion so much as replaced the local religion with their own.
  • Isaiasb
    48
    Because I am speaking on the desire to not allow a higher power to have any basis over them.
  • Vera Mont
    4.2k
    Because I am speaking on the desire to not allow a higher power to have any basis over them.Isaiasb
    But we don't recognize you as a higher power, so we will fight, if necessary, to keep your basis off our heads.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    Because I am speaking on the desire to not allow a higher power to have any basis over them.Isaiasb

    And telling lies about atheists and agnostics is justified because of that?
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    I don't think you lied. I think you have a particular value system that constructs atheism in a way which suits that system and the rhetoric which supports it. Most people have these kinds of foibles.

    I'm more interested in your idea of absolute truth. Why would you not just defend Platonic idealism or similar and leave out Christianity, which will only get you into proselytizing territory?

    If someone believes in the Orthodox Christian God, the belief in Truth becomes easy to conceptualize because John 14:6 specifies Jesus is truthIsaiasb

    This is weak. Many Christians recognize that the Bible is allegory and don't consider it literally true. As I said earlier, this appears to be appealing to claims in a book to prove the claims in a book. "The Bible is true because the Bible says it is true."
  • punos
    561


    How can one verify that the "truth" given by God is in fact true? Before answering that question; how does one verify that the entity providing this "truth" is in fact God?
  • Isaiasb
    48
    It's simple, if God is Truth, then anything of God is true. So then verification comes from deciphering if it is of God or not, we us both the Holy Ghost and Scripture to figure this out.
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    It's simple, if God is Truth, then anything of God is true. So then verification comes from deciphering if it is of God or not, we us both the Holy Ghost and Scripture to figure this out.Isaiasb

    That seems to be some pretty mediocre apologetics. Simplistic, not 'simple'.

    If God is truth - which God and how do we establish this god is true AND that you know what this god wants? No one has yet pulled this one off. Islamic apologists seem to think they have done the best job.

    How do you use the Holy Spirit and Scripture to figure out anything?

    You need to demonstrate that there is a holy spirit. Good luck with that. And how do you know scripture is true? We're back at circular reasoning, right? The Bible/Koran is true because it says it is true.
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