I am sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.The problem being that these equations do not describe waves, and you know this. — Metaphysician Undercover
In the late 19th century, electrons were discovered. We came to understand that they are part of every atom of matter. At first, for historical reasons, it was thought that they were particles. Because of that assumption, it was decided that there must be light particles (photons) as well. In 1923, it was shown that electrons interfere with each other and with themselves -- something only waves can do. So, electrons, an essential constituent of every atom, are waves. Every property previously explained using the particle assumption can be explained by their wave nature. On the other hand, no wave property is explained by the particle assumption. That means the particle hypothesis is falsified.Can you explain how you conceive of a "matter wave"? — Metaphysician Undercover
But, if there is no body, why would we expect it to have a well-defined (point) location or arrival time? Wave packets are spread out in space and time. Because of Fourier's theorem, which applies to all waves, to have a single wave length, a wave must be infinitely long, and to be at a single point, it must have all wave lengths. When you insist that we are not dealing with waves, but particles, this translates into indeterminacy. Since a quantum's energy is proportional to its frequency and its momentum is inversely proportional to its wave length, finite wave packets have neither well-defined energy nor momentum.The momentum of the body could be provided by an energy equivalence with the energy of the wave, but the uncertainty principle would render the position of such a body, with a determined momentum, as having no determinable location. — Metaphysician Undercover
There is no objective randomness. Randomness is a measure of our ignorance. The more we know, the less random processes are. In the quantum case, we know neither the exact initial state of the wave we are trying to measure, nor the exact initial state of the detector that will interact with it. So, all we can predict is a probability -- just as with a dice roll.Hence the "matter" wave is better known as a "probability" wave. — Metaphysician Undercover
That is exactly what the wave equations do represent. The problem is that you cannot pick the one actual solution out of an infinity of possible solutions without knowing the initial conditions.the particular wave in the particular set of circumstances is not ever actually represented — Metaphysician Undercover
Again, there is no "body."it represents possible locations of the body with mass — Metaphysician Undercover
I agree. But Determinism/Fatalism denies that a willing agent can find a causal gap to fill with her own intentions. Whatever will be will be, regardless of human desires.Also, free will is not indeterminate will. It is will determined by the agent willing. — Dfpolis
So, you fill the gap in physical understanding with a label : out there in the darkness of ignorance are "matter waves". Like medieval maps, in uncharted territory, you add a cautionary note : "here beThat physics has nothing more to say about what is vibrating does not mean that the constituents of matter do not oscillate in both space and time in well-defined ways. So, ordinary matter is made of waves. That is what I mean by "matter waves." — Dfpolis
The medium is not a key term. Physics is not philosophy. It does not aim to tell us what is, but what we can expect to observe in the physical world. Then, philosophers try to place those observations in a larger context -- one that provides a consistent framework of all human experience.But you leave the key term undefined. Is that an accurate assessment? — Gnomon
OK. So, why are we discussing "matter waves" on a philosophy forum. Does the distinction between Particles and Waves have a philosophical significance regarding Dualism & Interactionism?The medium is not a key term. Physics is not philosophy. It does not aim to tell us what is, but what we can expect to observe in the physical world. Then, philosophers try to place those observations in a larger context -- one that provides a consistent framework of all human experience. — Dfpolis
So, electrons, an essential constituent of every atom, are waves. Every property previously explained using the particle assumption can be explained by their wave nature. On the other hand, no wave property is explained by the particle assumption. That means the particle hypothesis is falsified. — Dfpolis
We have since found that wave mechanics also applies to protons and neutrons, the constituents of atomic nuclei. Every part of atoms, which constitute both ordinary and ionized matter, behaves like a wave. None is a point particle, or a hard object with a well-defined edge. That physics has nothing more to say about what is vibrating does not mean that the constituents of matter do not oscillate in both space and time in well-defined ways. So, ordinary matter is made of waves. That is what I mean by "matter waves." — Dfpolis
The strong force acts between quarks. Unlike all other forces (electromagnetic, weak, and gravitational), the strong force does not diminish in strength with increasing distance between pairs of quarks. After a limiting distance (about the size of a hadron) has been reached, it remains at a strength of about 10,000 newtons (N), no matter how much farther the distance between the quarks.[7] As the separation between the quarks grows, the energy added to the pair creates new pairs of matching quarks between the original two; hence it is impossible to isolate quarks. The explanation is that the amount of work done against a force of 10,000 newtons is enough to create particle–antiparticle pairs within a very short distance of that interaction. The very energy added to the system required to pull two quarks apart would create a pair of new quarks that will pair up with the original ones. In QCD, this phenomenon is called color confinement; as a result only hadrons, not individual free quarks, can be observed. The failure of all experiments that have searched for free quarks is considered to be evidence of this phenomenon. — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_interaction
But, if there is no body, why would we expect it to have a well-defined (point) location or arrival time? — Dfpolis
Since a quantum's energy is proportional to its frequency and its momentum is inversely proportional to its wave length, finite wave packets have neither well-defined energy nor momentum. — Dfpolis
That is exactly what the wave equations do represent. The problem is that you cannot pick the one actual solution out of an infinity of possible solutions without knowing the initial conditions. — Dfpolis
Again, there is no "body." — Dfpolis
Then you need to study nuclear physics and the behavior of the quarks in high energy physics.I believe it is simply not the case that wave mechanics can explain the massive nucleus of an atom — Metaphysician Undercover
It was not before the advent of Newtonian physics and has not been since the advent of modern quantum physics. Mass is proportional to the frequency of a quantum in its rest frame. This applies to all known quanta and is consistent with special relativity.And "mass" is what is most properly related to "matter". — Metaphysician Undercover
No physical theory has explained the existence of mass. We can explain our observations of the quantity of mass, but existence is a metaphysical problem. It was solved by Aquinas, who concluded that it is contingent on the continuing creative act of God.The fact that wave mechanics cannot explain the existence of mass — Metaphysician Undercover
Which has been falsified. Why would anyone want to do that?The particle is understood to behave under the principles of Newtonian mechanics. — Metaphysician Undercover
And, why would we want to discard this, or any other, fact? The mass of the electron is known with great precision. It is not zero.If we rob the electron of its mass, take it away, and deny that it has any mass, then that discrepancy in total mass, and violation to conservation laws needs to be accounted for. — Metaphysician Undercover
All known waves, even ocean waves, have momentum. The momentum of sound waves moves your ear drum. It can be and has been measured in quanta.See, the fault here is to assign momentum to a wave. — Metaphysician Undercover
Then, you need to study differential equations.I think that this is incorrect. — Metaphysician Undercover
You may believe what you wish. I constrain my beliefs by what has been observed. We can and do have energy, which is equivalent to mass, in space free of all "particles." This is known as a field's "energy density" and is proportional to the field strength (e.g. the electromagnetic field) squared.I strongly believe that wave structures cannot account for the mass of a body, — Metaphysician Undercover
Then you need to study nuclear physics and the behavior of the quarks in high energy physics. — Dfpolis
Mass is proportional to the frequency of a quantum in its rest frame. — Dfpolis
No physical theory has explained the existence of mass. We can explain our observations of the quantity of mass, but existence is a metaphysical problem. It was solved by Aquinas, who concluded that it is contingent on the continuing creative act of God.
I am well aware of the strong force. It is described using wave mechanics. Its range is related to the time an intermediating boson can exist (which is inversely proportional to its mass). That time is calculated using Heisenberg's indeterminacy relation. The same is true of all the forces known to physics. — Dfpolis
The mass of the electron is known with great precision. It is not zero. — Dfpolis
It took 10 years of college and post graduate education to lay the foundation for my understanding, and many years of reflection after that to integrate the pieces into a consistent whole. I do not have that kind of time to spend here. You can look at my (dfpolis) youtube physics videos if you wish. There I have corrected a number of common misunderstandings. You might also look up my paper "Does God Gamble with Creation?"You claim you have been trying to teach me, but you really don't seem to be making much effort. I know that I am of the very skeptical sort, and as such I am a very difficult and trying student, but you often don't seem to be trying very hard yourself. — Metaphysician Undercover
Your OP seems to be challenging conventional dualistic philosophical and scientific categories, such as Mind vs Body, or Wave vs Particle. But your (radical?) alternative perspective is difficult for conventional thinkers to follow --- in part, because it doesn't seem to fit into traditional compartmental worldviews, such as Realism vs Idealism. Nevertheless, I am beginning to see that you may have a good point, but I don't know exactly what it is. Perhaps because it is wishy-washy wavelike instead of hard-point particular. Is that a fair assessment?Most contemporary philosophers of mind employ a Cartesian conceptual space in which reality is (at least potentially) divided into res extensa and res cogitans. Then, they ask: how res cogitans could possibly interact with res extensa? I am suggesting that this approach is nonsensical because reality cannot be divided into res extensa and res cogitans. — Dfpolis
You didn't deign to answer my request for a dumbed-down definition of "matter waves". So, I'm still not sure if you are referring to physical waves in a compressible substance, or metaphysical waves in an ethereal medium. I have a notion that light waves propagating in empty space are actually on-off alternations that are interpreted by the mind in terms of sinuous waves in a material substance. With no inertial mass to push off of, light has nothing reactive to act upon. But oscillations between something & nothing or potential & actual might be a clue to some of light's mysterious properties. This is not a developed theory, just a hunch for further investigation. :nerd:So, ordinary matter is made of waves. That is what I mean by "matter waves."
We have known that there is electromagnetic field energy and momentum, permeating all space, since the late 19th century. As a result, Newton's third law is violated when electromagnetic forces are involved. — Dfpolis
You can look at my (dfpolis) youtube physics videos if you wish. There I have corrected a number of common misunderstandings. You might also look up my paper "Does God Gamble with Creation?" — Dfpolis
Probably the easiest thing to grasp is the concept of fields' energy density. Since mass and energy are interchangeable, fields increase the mass of systems. Imagine positively and negatively charged parallel plates. Because they are attracted to each other, pulling them apart takes energy. That energy is stored in the electric field between the plates -- in space. When the plates are released, that energy becomes kinetic energy. The same is true of magnetic fields.Ok, thanks for the references Dfpolis. You know my principal interest, as I've developed it in this thread, the concept of mass in physics. Can you direct me toward anything specifically related to the ideas I've expressed here. — Metaphysician Undercover
That is fine. They are the components of a tensor of rank 2 in special relativity. That means that they can transform into each when we change reference frames.The separation of electromagnetism into distinct electric and magnetic fields is something I've never really been able to understand. — Metaphysician Undercover
You asked for something you could understand, and I gave it to you. But, instead of researching it, you want to argue about it. I do not. — Dfpolis
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