How I found God

stonedthoughtsofnature

Recently I've began to consider the real possibility of a presence out there that's larger than myself. I think everyone is constantly searching for "it", or "God", or the "energy", or whatever you'd like to call this presence. I was an atheist for the longest time. I investigated all the common arguments for the existence of God. I understand basic epistemology and things like that - things like "belief in nonexistence vs lack of belief in existence". The problem I was having before was that I was looking for God in the wrong place. I was looking out into the world from a self-centered perspective, from a scientific mindset. The issue with that is that science is a presupposed worldview (naturalism based on materialism) and ignores the possibility of all things which exist beyond that. I get that science is our best way to investigate truth. To test on an objective level if things exist outside ourselves through methods of observations, cognitive biases, falsifiability, etc...Don't get me wrong, I love science and what it offers. It's clearly the best way to gain knowledge of the universe; however, it does ignore the existence of something I feel connected with.

"God", is this type of higher consciousness that we are able to connect with not through "looking out into the world" but looking "up into the present". God transcends the physical reality and so if you try looking out into the world for it, you won't find it. It could be the case that we have built within our psyche this "God Gene" of sorts, sort of like the Freudian "ID", that motivates us to search for a higher presence, but I actually feel the presence because I'm "in it" and it seems so real that I can't honestly say that something isn't there.

It's hard to define exactly what it is because in a way it's describing how something tastes. How are you supposed to describe what "sour" tastes like to somebody who hasn't ever tasted anything sour? You can tell them where to find it, but you can't actually communicate what that's like if you don't experience it yourself. God is an experience that you need to have to understand what it is. One thing it's not is that it's not a being that you can communicate with or pray to, like the Christian concept of a God, but it's a collective sentience that brings everything together.

Noblosh

Recently I've began to consider the real possibility of a presence out there that's larger than myself. I think everyone is constantly searching for — stonedthoughtsofnature

Not me, that would conflict with my arrogance.

How are you supposed to describe what "sour" tastes like to somebody who hasn't ever tasted anything sour? — stonedthoughtsofnature

Say it tastes like excitement.

God is an experience that you need to have to understand what it is. — stonedthoughtsofnature

Then stop trying to explain irrationality in a rational way.

but it's a collective sentience that brings everything together. — stonedthoughtsofnature

Like a universal interconnectivity?

Galuchat

↪stonedthoughtsofnature

From your chosen moniker, it could be inferred that your thoughts are inspired by a chemically-induced state of consciousness. Or are they neoplatonically inspired? Both? Neither?

"The predisposition to religious belief is the most complex and powerful force in the human mind and in all probability an ineradicable part of human nature." Wilson, E.O. (2004). On Human Nature. Harvard University Press.

If true, there is no such thing as a spiritual vacuum (i.e., all human beings have a worldview). Science is a method which some have transformed into a worldview (i.e., Scientism).

T Clark

God is an experience that you need to have to understand what it is. One thing it's not is that it's not a being that you can communicate with or pray to, like the Christian concept of a God, but it's a collective sentience that brings everything together. — stonedthoughtsofnature

I was feeling sympathetic toward your discussion. Although your vision of god is not mine, it seemed like we might have something in common. Then I read the above text. So - you have experienced god and you'll tell us if our experience of god is right or wrong. Is that right?

lambda

I was sort of with you up until this...

One thing it's not is that it's not a being that you can communicate with or pray to, like the Christian concept of a God. — stonedthoughtsofnature

Sorry, but a god you can't communicate with is not really a god at all.

BC

How I found God

How did God find you?

Thorongil

One thing it's not is that it's not a being that you can communicate with or pray to — stonedthoughtsofnature

Then you didn't find God.

TheMadFool

↪stonedthoughtsofnature

I sympathize with you. There are cognitive states that cannot be accurately described in words. Brings to mind the following conversation (authentic?):

Scientist X: Alas our theory is too poor for reality
Neils Bohr: No. Reality is too rich for our theory

You get the point.

However, in any rational outlook, be it science or philosophy, objectivity is set at a premium. And, unfortunately for people like you, your experience doesn't pass muster. Such experiences could be hallucinations, delusions, etc.

That said I find such objections unfair. History is replete with examples of the pioneers of thought being ridiculed, persecuted, even killed for their novel ideas. The point being such great thinkers were at one time absolutely ALONE - like you and others like you are.

Noble Dust

One thing it's not is that it's not a being that you can communicate with or pray to, like the Christian concept of a God — stonedthoughtsofnature

Indeed, the idea of a relationship with God is an anthropomorphisation. The way that God interfaces with us is not relational. A relationship (in the way it's used when referring to God) is a back and forth of things like language (spoken directly or written down), body language, physical touch, relation per relations with other people in the social situation, shared activities, a shared physical presence...none of these literal aspects of a relationship actually apply to an experience of The Divine; hence it's a metaphor at best. On top of that, any direct, miraculous experience of The Divine that any of us might experience is always an exception to the norm; for instance, an experience of actually communicating with God is an exception, not the norm. It's fine to use "relationship" as a metaphor for how we experience The Divine...until it's not ok anymore. The metaphor blurs and we learn to assume that we're supposed to actually have a relationship with The Divine in the same way we might have a relationship with a father figure. This doesn't lead to a deeper spiritual experience; it leads to a self-imposed neuroses.

The experience of The Divine is in reality much more diffuse and complex. Social situations determine how the experience is interpreted and named. But the experience is uniform behind the backdrop of the interpretation.

visit0r

God is an experience that you need to have to understand what it is. One thing it's not is that it's not a being that you can communicate with or pray to, like the Christian concept of a God, but it's a collective sentience that brings everything together. — stonedthoughtsofnature

Hi. I believe that you've experienced something, but why assume that this experience is universally accessible and also that others' experiences labelled 'God' are the same one you had? Why not a unique experience or set of experiences for every person? I have 2 suggest answers. First, certain peak experiences feel universal. Second, we want to make a claim on the universal. "I've experienced God" is like "I've read War and Peace" and "I've been to New York." It's more grandiose, perhaps, but it's same kind of bragging. It might take the form of spreading the good news ("I just want to share this joy.") but it's also a presentation of the virtue of the presenter.

But I'll agree with you in an important sense. There's a limit to the power of mere words. You can't pack the experience into a sentence and shove that sentence into an ear and expect the heart connected to that ear to light up with the same experience. Instead two humans share more or less the same peak experience or slow-burning realization and they determine this sameness by exchanging sentences. We learnt to trust that a new friend or lover really gets it or really had that "divine" experience.

Terrapin Station

I think everyone is constantly searching for "it", or "God", or the "energy", or whatever you'd like to call this presence. — stonedthoughtsofnature

I don't know why you'd think that.

An atheist who is "looking for God" sounds like an odd sort of atheist to me.

T Clark

Hi. I believe that you've experienced something, but why assume that this experience is universally accessible and also that others' experiences labelled 'God' are the same one you had? Why not a unique experience or set of experiences for every person? — visit0r

In the sense you've written, how is our experience of god any different from any other experience? Just change "god" to "blue" or "pizza." Are you saying it is impossible for one person to understand another's experience of the world?

And maybe that's the heart of the matter. Is an experience of god the same type of experience as any other, as examples - wetness, heat, pain, love, the smell of lavender. My answer is "yes."

You can't find what's not there, no matter how much you want it. I really want to find £100,000 cash underneath my sofa, but wanting it won't make it so. You're just yet another person who has had a funny feeling, read too much into it, and now wants to declare your "epiphany" to the world. Congratulations, you're one of those special people who are not blind like the rest of us - blinded by our sensible, no nonsense approach to life, rather than letting our fanciful thoughts get the better of us.

Agustino

I really want to find £100,000 cash underneath my sofa, but wanting it won't make it so. — Sapientia

Of course, money doesn't pop out of nowhere, what did you expect? Most people who get in touch with God, and become aware of God's presence work at it. They don't make it up, the same way you don't dream up your £100K.

Of course, money doesn't pop out of nowhere, what did you expect? Most people who get in touch with God, and become aware of God's presence work at it. They don't make it up, the same way you don't dream up your £100K. — Agustino

I expect not to find what's not there. Didn't I make that clear?

How about we make a deal? If you work real hard at getting in touch with Big Foot, then I'll work real hard at getting in touch with God. Or we could spend our time avoiding wild goose chases. The problem is precisely that, in the case of people who say that they've found God, they do seem to make it up, or dream it up. Would you believe me if I told you I found £100,000 cash under my sofa? No. Do I believe this random internet guy, named stonedthoughtsofnature, when he tells me that he has found God? No.

visit0r

In the sense you've written, how is our experience of god any different from any other experience? Just change "god" to "blue" or "pizza." Are you saying it is impossible for one person to understand another's experience of the world? — T Clark

But "blue" and "pizza" won't work as substitutes. First we think we do understand the joy of pizza more or less like everyone else. It's not controversial. God, however, is used as a justification for killing human beings, obstructing free inquiry, etc. To have a relationship with the supreme being is to make a status claim.

My point is that maybe there all kinds of peak experiences. I've had my share. They felt universal. But I'm rarely satisfied that others know what I'm talking about if I try to describe them. Yet they've had their own experiences that I can't quite feel my way into. I think there's a common but not universal assumption that there is one essential genuinely spiritual experience. There is one kind of "enlightenment," for instance. But I see no reason to assume that. I understand the appeal of the One True Thing, but that appeal is (at least among other things) nakedly narcissistic and status-driven. "Glamor is the happiness of being envied." It's another fetishized commodity, perhaps the ultimate commodity. That's hardly exhaustive. But it's the grime that tends to stick to claims of subjective treasure.

T Clark

You can't find what's not there, no matter how much you want it. I really want to find £100,000 cash underneath my sofa, but wanting it won't make it so. You're just yet another person who has had a funny feeling, read too much into it, and now wants to declare your "epiphany" to the world. Congratulations, you're one of those special people who are not blind like the rest of us - blinded by our sensible, no nonsense approach to life, rather than letting our fanciful thoughts get the better of us. — Sapientia

There is a common human experience. I've had it, many others have had it. Apparently you have not, or at least you aren't aware of it. Or maybe you use different words. Some people call it "God." Although I am not what you would call it a theist, I can understand that. For many of us, there is a fundamental feeling of gratitude for what we have been given. That feeling of gratitude leads us to want to thank someone, something.

I think there is a naturalistic, reasonable argument that it makes sense to grant personhood to the world we live in. My vision of how that might work won't be satisfying to monotheists, but I think my way of thinking and theirs grow out of that common experience.

T Clark

My point is that maybe there all kinds of peak experiences. I've had my share. They felt universal. But I'm rarely satisfied that others know what I'm talking about if I try to describe them. — visit0r

I think pizza and blue are good substitutes in this context. It doesn't have anything to do with "status." You have not made a case that our perception of god is different in any way from our perceptions of other things.

It is a clichéd philosophical question - how do I know that other people experience blue the same way I do? How is that different from saying - how do I know that other people experience god the same way I do?

Terrapin Station

↪T Clark

It seems like some sort of phenomenal experience that's often interpreted as religious experience is fairly common. But it also seems like something that not everyone has. Or at least not everyone has it in a manner where it's at all plausible to them that it's religious experience. The closest I come to it, for example, is maybe an ineffable resonant/ecstatic feeling in response to some artworks, romantic encounters, environmental immersion, etc.

T Clark

It seems like some sort of phenomenal experience that's often interpreted as religious experience is fairly common. But it also seems like something that not everyone has. Or at least not everyone has it in a manner where it's at all plausible to them that it's religious experience. The closest I come to it, for example, is maybe an ineffable resonant/ecstatic feeling in response to some artworks, romantic encounters, environmental immersion, etc. — Terrapin Station

I agree, but the fact that everyone might not experience whatever it is we're talking about or experiences it differently isn't evidence that it doesn't exist or is not worthy of consideration.

Sivad

An atheist who is "looking for God" sounds like an odd sort of atheist to me. — Terrapin Station

There are plenty of spiritual atheists, maybe they're not seeking God in name but they are seeking higher axiological and soteriological truths so in that sense they are seeking God in spirit.

Sivad

It seems like some sort of phenomenal experience that's often interpreted as religious experience is fairly common. But it also seems like something that not everyone has. Or at least not everyone has it in a manner where it's at all plausible to them that it's religious experience. The closest I come to it, for example, is maybe an ineffable resonant/ecstatic feeling in response to some artworks, romantic encounters, environmental immersion, etc. — Terrapin Station

Those experiences rarely occur spontaneously, you have enter into the mystery, you have to psychologically commit. And what's interesting about that is even if Jesus isn't real the idea of Jesus can still save your soul. If allowed to work, the mythology can lead to sublime experiences of catharsis and renewal which can effect radical change within the individual. Mythology is powerful, but in order to access that power you have to activate and engage the mythological imagination.

Terrapin Station

↪T Clark

I agree with that, but as someone who doesn't have those sorts of experiences, that contributes to not being prone to those sorts of beliefs.

Janus

↪Sivad

This is a very important point you make, and one that is often missed. My only question is: what could it mean for Jesus to be either real or not? Any spiritual reality is not an empirical reality, and so is not subject to intersubjective corroboration beyond the ambit of the merely analogical. Spiritual experiences are real by virtue of their being experienced; so if I experience Jesus, then Jesus is real. The converse: 'if I don't experience Jesus, Jesus is not real', does not hold, though.

Terrapin Station

There are plenty of spiritual atheists, maybe they're not seeking God in name but they are seeking higher axiological and soteriological truths so in that sense they are seeking God in spirit. — Sivad

I don't believe that. I can believe that there are some people who identify as atheists who would fit that description, but I don't believe there are a lot.

Terrapin Station

Those experiences rarely occur spontaneously, you have enter into the mystery, you have to psychologically commit. And what's interesting about that is even if Jesus isn't real the idea of Jesus can still save your soul. If allowed to work, the mythology can lead to sublime experiences of catharsis and renewal which can effect radical change within the individual. Mythology is powerful, but in order to access that power you have to activate and engage the mythological imagination. — Sivad

I've just had to make an appointment with my ophthalmologist--that made my eyes roll completely around so many times.

Sivad

↪Terrapin Station

Millions of Buddhists fit in that category, there are the many academics and philosophers(Sam Harris, J.L. Schellenberg, Stuart Kaffman) doing work in this area, and then there are all the liberal theolgians like Paul Tillich and John Shelby Spong who have a significant following. There are millions and millions of people who fit that description.

Sivad

what could it mean for Jesus to be either real or not? — John

The actual existence of the deity, but I take your point. The myth by itself has transformative power so it's real enough, and that's pretty much the basis of moderate religion.

Sivad

that made my eyes roll completely around so many times. — Terrapin Station

So you don't believe myth and religion have any impact on the psyche? You don't believe people have transformative religious experiences?

Terrapin Station

Millions of Buddhists fit in that category, there are the many academics and philosophers(Sam Harris, J.L. Schellenberg, Stuart Kaffman) doing work in this area, and then there are all the liberal theolgians like Paul Tillich and John Shelby Spong who have a significant following. There are millions and millions of people who fit that description. — Sivad

What you'd have to do is show me well-done surveys demonstrating significant numbers of people who are clearly atheists but who are clearly also "spiritual" etc.

Terrapin Station

So you don't believe myth and religion have any impact on the psyche? You don't believe people have transformative religious experiences? — Sivad

If only that were all you'd said.

How I found God

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